D0wn with Levi Strauss & C0.!

[CrAz3D]

But that is acting against the greater good.

[Arta]

because they are not going to change who they are.

It's not a choice. It cannot be changed at will.

If it better serves the group, then yes. The best example in defense of BSA is the Supreme Court case involving Hooters. A guy sued them because he wanted to waitress there and they turned him down due to his gender. The case was taken to the Supreme Court and Hooters won due to the fact that it's customer base wants women surving them - not men. It was, thus, in the best interest of hte company to have only female waitresses.

The same idea, I think, applies to BSA. If I was going to put my child in a group that I thought was going to preach to him good moral values, I sure as hell wouldn't want a gay troop leader teaching these things - that's not a good example - especially when raising your child to be a Christian. It's just not, you can't deny it without lying.

Only if you consider being gay and having bad morals the same thing. I take issue with that. The fact that your religion supports your homophobia just makes the situation all the more sad. If the Supreme Court wants to codify misogyny, that's their business. It's funny that you seem to think hooters has ok moral values, seeing as it exists purely so that men can stare at women's breasts, while at the same time gay people must universally be immoral because of a sexual preference, which needn't even be a part of their job.

Another one, why can't somebody like - me, or Mitosis join Valhalla Legends? You guys are, essentially, a private organization. And guess what? Your leaders/members are expected to act a certain way, and posess advanced knowledge in certain subjects (for the most part.) How is that not discrimination against those that aren't as advanced?

Like I said to Crazed, you can become qualified. You can work hard. You can hang around. You can make friends. Then you can join. You can't stop being gay, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

Arta, stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

God... never have I been so close to using profanity on these forums as I am now. I am not doing that. I feel strongly about this issue, and I have exhibited considerable patience in putting up with the sea of nonsensical prattle that has been flowing from the keyboards of the rest of you. So, hismajesty, get serious or get lost. If the intent of your post was to offend me then you have succeeded.

[dxoigmn]

But that is acting against the greater good.

That's relative. They believe in non-discrimination while the BSA doesn't. So from their perspective it is for the greater good. What is so hard to understand about that?

[hismajesty]

Only if you consider being gay and having bad morals the same thing. I take issue with that. The fact that your religion supports your homophobia just makes the situation all the more sad. If the Supreme Court wants to codify misogyny, that's their business. It's funny that you seem to think hooters has ok moral values, seeing as it exists purely so that men can stare at women's breasts, while at the same time gay people must universally be immoral because of a sexual preference, which needn't even be a part of their job.

Why is it alright to discriminate against people based on gender but not sexual preference Arta? Why can the Supreme Court condone one but not the other? I never said I condone Hooters activities, nor do I intend to imply that I do. I was using that as an example since a legal decision has been made concerning them. And, besides, I'd wager that a lot of people go there for the food. During Model UN a bunch of us went there for lunch, and the people that made the reservations were girls from our schools. Our waitress was pretty ugly and was more attentive to the other tables than ours, maybe because we were kids or something, but I didn't really care as the food was good. =)

Like I said to Crazed, you can become qualified. You can work hard. You can hang around. You can make friends. Then you can join. You can't stop being gay, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

Why do I have to work hard? Why do I have to become qualified? I've been hanging around for a long time, I've made a decent number of friends as well. Why aren't recruiters knocking at my door if this is an equal oppurtunity clan run by so many open minded people? I mean, why discriminate against me because I'm not working hard, not qualified, and perhaps haven't been around a long time or made any friends? What if I can't help it? What if I was a mentally challenged antisocial bnet player? Is that my fault?

By the way, in the city next to where I live - Virginia Beach, VA - it's like "the trend" for gay people to go to this place that supposedly makes them ungay via hypnosis or something. I've mentioned that before after reading about it in the paper I beleive.

God... never have I been so close to using profanity on these forums as I am now. I am not doing that. I feel strongly about this issue, and I have exhibited considerable patience in putting up with the sea of nonsensical prattle that has been flowing from the keyboards of the rest of you. So, hismajesty, get serious or get lost. If the intent of your post was to offend me then you have succeeded.

Ouch, nice to see such a peaceful liberal getting so worked up over a little comment by a teenager half way across the globe. The intention of that comment wasn't to offend you, but I can't say I'm too upset that it did. The point of it was to shine light on the fact that, to my knowledge, you have not once agreed with anything me, CrAz3D, Hazard, or Peof have said. It truly appears as if you're disagreeing just so you can argue with us and make us look like asses, etc. Since, of course, you're always innocent and always right.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

How do I not understand what homosexuality is? Explain it to me then, I want GOOD explainations.

Gay people are attracted to people of the same sex because that's who they are. It's biological. They don't choose to become gay any more than you choose to be heterosexual. A child will not become gay by being around gay people, any more than a gay child will become straight by hanging around straight people.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I'm 17, and I've been doing competitive swimming for 8 years (since I was 9). I've gradually watched all but six males on my team turn gay. First, one of them became gay, and within six months five "came out". I've also seen this at school, where people are turned gay by their friends.

Here's an example I've seen countless times. Someone joins theater club in high school or junior high. It's fun and they enjoy it. Imagine the combination of factors this kid may (and often does) experience:

a) It's junior high or high school, and he may feel awkward
b) People around him are gay
c) Here comes my generalization: gay people talk about being gay and spread their message all the time
d) Culture (eg MTV) says "people in theater club are gay"

He thinks to himself, "Well...maybe I'm gay!" and gradually convinces himself that he is.

Don't interpret this post to be a homophobic statement, but if you've ever seen a large gay community (such as the one in my school), you'll know this is true. I think Crazed is right; some people are genuinely gay, but the number of gays is disproportionate enough and socially distributed in such a way to realize that gay people do indeed choose, whether from outside pressure as mentioned above, or through some sort of family trouble. They use being gay as a reason for feeling the way they do. After all, we were designed to reproduce, and gays don't exactly do that.

Honestly, my only beef is that flamboyant gay people are really annoying, but I'm a firm believer in only legislative action that prevents others from being hurt. Thus, I don't think they should really be excluded from anything, but this boy scout leaders thing is a tough issue, and I have absolutely no stance on it whatsoever.

Rip me to shreds, Arta, Adron, and dxoigmn.

[Arta]

vL requires people to be qualified. That's not the same as discriminating on the basis of a person's sexuality. The argument you propose would require hostitals to hire unqualified doctors because they can't discriminate about anything. That's just silly. The difference is clear.

As for hooters, the answer is obvious: being female is a required quality in order to do the job. The same doesn't apply with homosexuality, because there's no reason to believe that homosexuality will affect someone's job performance. No reason other than ignorant, paranoid homophobia, anyway.

I have agreed with Hazard before. I remember agreeing with Quasi too, but I don't remember what it was about. There are areas of common ground, just not many. I don't know where you get the idea that I'm always peaceful. When provoked, I get pissed off just like everyone else does. Finally, I don't need to make you look like asses. As far as this thread is concerned, you're all doing a very good job of that without my help.

[Hazard]

Arta, being male wouldn't make someone any less adequate of a steward wouldn't it, just as homosexuals aren't any less qualified to teach good clean living to youngsters? They have concluded that homosexuals do not live by the values that they intend to teach and therefore are unqualified to teach them. If you think you know better, prove the BSA wrong.

[K]

Back to the original topic:

The BSA has the right (until it is proven in court that they don't) to deny openly gay members / scout masters.

Levi Strauss has the right to choose where they invest there money.  If they don't agree with the BSA's policy, there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't withdraw funding. 

And you also have the right to not buy Levi Strauss products if you don't support the company's actions.  Unfortunantly, it's pretty unlikely that the number of people that might stop buying their products will have any effect on the company. (Hell, I've never bought Levi Strauss before -- cause I don't like their clothes.)

It's just about as simple as that.

As a former boy scout myself, I don't see anything wrong with having an openly gay scout master.  I do see something wrong with having a paedophile scout master.  These are two completely different cases.

[Hazard]

I guess it is. We probably thought higher of you than you really deserve. America is a country of prejudice and discrimination. Thanks for clearing that up.

And you point the finger at me for personal flames? America is a great nation, as is blatantly obvious by both history and current events. America is a country of liberties, and a private club has the right to set membership requirements? You want to act all high and mighty you can go ahead, but don't try and tell me that you know what America is because the fact is you aren't basing any of your opinions on facts. Nowhere in the US Constitution does it state that private organizations and clubs cannot set requirements for employment or membership. You base your entire opinion of American society off of the people that you see around here, and that isn't adequate. If I were to base my opinion on all Swedes based on the people I have seen around here (you) then I'd have to say that Swedes are arrogant jackasses that are convinced of self-superiority and righteousness and that Sweden as a nation views itself as the bringer of truth and knowledge to the entire world. You see how asinine that sounds? Its exactly what you're doing.

[Arta]

Don't interpret this post to be a homophobic statement, but if you've ever seen a large gay community (such as the one in my school), you'll know this is true. I think Crazed is right; some people are genuinely gay, but the number of gays is disproportionate enough and socially distributed in such a way to realize that gay people do indeed choose, whether from outside pressure as mentioned above, or through some sort of family trouble. They use being gay as a reason for feeling the way they do. After all, we were designed to reproduce, and gays don't exactly do that.

Actually, I do know where you're coming from. I'm 22, and I saw similar things at school. My response, however, is simple: who cares? That's the age at which people are supposed to experiment. Of the people I knew at school who were gay or bi, only one of them still is (to the best of my knowledge). I guess my point is, when people make a 'fasionable' choice to become gay, it never lasts. A lot of those people will suddenly find they are not at all gay when it comes to anything sexual, and the rest will grow out of taking such extremes to be fasionable. The people who actually are gay will stay that way.

As far as the boy scouts goes, I still don't think it matters. I do think that it would be inappropriate for a gay scout leader to attempt to convince his cohorts that being gay is cool, or something similar. It would obviously be wrong for a scout leader of any sexual orientation to be openly sexual with their charges. I simply take issue with the assumption that a gay person would do these things, and would thus be a bad scout leader. I see absolutely no reason why gay people automatically lack moral fibre.

In fact, I had several gay teachers at school, and didn't even realise it at the time. I once asked one of them if he was married, and got a rather incredulous 'no' accompanied with a bewildered expression

[Arta]

Arta, being male wouldn't make someone any less adequate of a steward wouldn't it, just as homosexuals aren't any less qualified to teach good clean living to youngsters? They have concluded that homosexuals do not live by the values that they intend to teach and therefore are unqualified to teach them. If you think you know better, prove the BSA wrong.

They're less adequate if the company needs stewards with big breasts to lure in their horny clientelle...

[CrAz3D]

Arta:
You sexual preference IS a choice!  It is proven that about 50% of your sexuality is genetic & the other 50% is decided by your surroundings, make sure all the surroundings are striaght then there won't be any gay people.

Morals are what is right & wrong, the bible is the basis of morality, the bible says man & woman should be together, homosexuality is immoral.

Phobia is a fear, did you not read my previous post relating to this?  I am not afraid of them, I don't want to be around them.

Hooters is merely being used as an example, maybe if you weren't so narrowed minded you would see that.

Gay people can become straight & then join scouts, or make their own scouting type organization.  Being gay is a choice, it is influenced by your environment, same as being a bad person (robber, murderer, drub dealer) is.  You can change.

dxoigmn:
So by accepting immoral people & shunning people that are being raised with respect, dignity, & morals you are making the world a better place?...hmm, ok

Banana:
Thank you for a third party type comment that shows the reality of one's environment affecting your sexual preference.  LOL @ the flamboyant people comment.
Also, I figure Scouting is a PRIVATE organization, you do NOT have to join if you don't want to.  If you don't agree with us, go screw yourself start your own organization


Arta, again:
Of COURSE being a homosexual will affect one's job as a scout leader.  Leaders are supposed to live by the scout law & be moral.  Being gay isn't being moral.

I DEMAND to know how I am homophobic


K:
But why should they support us FULLY knowing our stance against homosexuality & then withdraw funding based on the fact that we choose not to allow those peopel to join?  And also, because Levi wants BSA to accept everyone regardless of their beliefs & sexual prefferences, shouldn't they do the same?

Arta, again:
Why should someone experiment with something that is wrong?  Should people experiment with crack, coke, pot, heroin, acid, lsd, ectasy?

Gay people are less adequate if the troop needs people to teach & support good morals


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EDIT:
It is hard to reply when people keep replying before I get a chance, lol

[Arta]

Arta:
You sexual preference IS a choice!  It is proven that about 50% of your sexuality is genetic & the other 50% is decided by your surroundings, make sure all the surroundings are striaght then there won't be any gay people.

While I do not discount environmental factors as a possible influence, I do not think that people 'become gay' if the 50% genetics isn't there to begin with. As a friend of mine once put it: "Not all people with the gene are gay, but all people who are gay have the gene".

Morals are what is right & wrong, the bible is the basis of morality, the bible says man & woman should be together, homosexuality is immoral.

With the bible as your moral compass, I assume you also think that slavery, death by stoning, human sacrifice, and touching the skin of dead pigs are all reprehensible as well.

Phobia is a fear, did you not read my previous post relating to this?  I am not afraid of them, I don't want to be around them.

I answered that already:

It isn't the same thing.  Phobias are fears of something, I don't fear gay people, I don't agree with how they live their life.

That's not correct:

ho·mo·pho·bi·a 
n.

   1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
   2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


Function: noun
Irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

homophobia

n : prejudice against (fear or dislike of) homosexual people and homosexuality

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Hooters is merely being used as an example, maybe if you weren't so narrowed minded you would see that.

It's a bad example, all I did was highlight that.

Gay people can become straight & then join scouts, or make their own scouting type organization.  Being gay is a choice, it is influenced by your environment, same as being a bad person (robber, murderer, drub dealer) is.  You can change.

*shrug* I disagree.

Arta, again:
Of COURSE being a homosexual will affect one's job as a scout leader.  Leaders are supposed to live by the scout law & be moral.  Being gay isn't being moral.

I don't agree that it's immoral. I don't see why a gay person would give worse guidance than a straight person on any given topic.

I DEMAND to know how I am homophobic

See above.

Arta, again:
Why should someone experiment with something that is wrong?  Should people experiment with crack, coke, pot, heroin, acid, lsd, ectasy?

Gay people are less adequate if the troop needs people to teach & support good morals

...homosexuality isn't wrong.

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EDIT:
It is hard to reply when people keep replying before I get a chance, lol

Hey! We agree on something!

[hismajesty]

vL requires people to be qualified. That's not the same as discriminating on the basis of a person's sexuality. The argument you propose would require hostitals to hire unqualified doctors because they can't discriminate about anything. That's just silly. The difference is clear.

Point taken. I wouldn't want an unqualified doctor working on my child, nor would I want a gay scout leader working with him. My argument was petty, but it was a good analogy in my opinion. It's still discrimination though.

As for hooters, the answer is obvious: being female is a required quality in order to do the job. The same doesn't apply with homosexuality, because there's no reason to believe that homosexuality will affect someone's job performance. No reason other than ignorant, paranoid homophobia, anyway.

There are male waiters at Red Lobster, why would a male waiter at Hooters do an inferior job?

[CrAz3D]

I do support slavery, not in a race based way.  I think there should be free prison labor.  Death by stoning, sure, if death is deserved why not.  Human sacrifice not in a 'jump into a volcano' way, but in the sense that someone can sacrifice their life for their country/beliefs/family

I guess technically the joinning vL theory wouldn't work because the defintion os discrimination is against a class/category, not an individual.  But Levi is discriminating against Boy Scouts because of our beliefs.

I still see Hooters as a totally valid example