al-Zarqawi - "War on Democracy"

[quasi-modo]

I have no doubt that if the western world were islamic, and the middle east christian, the bible would be used to justify the same kind of behaviour. I know this, because... it has! Just look at the crusades.

It's the circumstances of the countries in question, their politics and their economics that are the important factors - those are the things that create terrorists. Religion is just an excuse.

The crusaids were claimed to be in response to muslim aggression. They were primarily a means of spreading anti-semitism and I would say hurt the jews a lot more then anyone else. Jews were robbed all throughout europe and in Israel. We are talking about the corrupt catholic church here, the same church that sold bones claiming that they were Jesus's. The crusaid's were in the guise of religion, but were not justified by the bible.

Christianity was not the spawner of the crusaids (you mentioned politics), but Islam does help to spawn terrorism. It provides a lot more fule because of plenty of problematic verses in the Koran that if taken literally encourage violence.

[quasi-modo]

I have no doubt that if the western world were islamic, and the middle east christian, the bible would be used to justify the same kind of behaviour. I know this, because... it has! Just look at the crusades.

It's the circumstances of the countries in question, their politics and their economics that are the important factors - those are the things that create terrorists. Religion is just an excuse.

Except the difference is that the crusades happened hundreds of years ago and Islamic extremists are still carrying out their "jihads" to this day.

Besides isolated incidents and the problems between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, I have a hard time finding examples that put modern Christianity anywhere near on the same level as modern Islam.

Note that as Arta pointed out Islam is a religion several hundred years younger.

Islam may have formed a couple hundread years after Jesus died, but when you think about when the catholic church was formed it is no newer. It was the catholics who launced the crusaids, not other groups like the anabaptists.

[quasi-modo]

I agree that the western world is becoming more secular, and I think that's great. The US does seem to be doing it rather more slowly than the rest of us, though!

That is not how it looks from here. Our nation is going in the crapper.

[CrAz3D]

so many freakin' immoral punk/hippie/rockers out there....pshht.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Corrupt Catholic church, Muslim fundamentalists, anyone see a parallel here?

Islam needs a reformation...

[DOOM]

I have no doubt that if the western world were islamic, and the middle east christian, the bible would be used to justify the same kind of behaviour. I know this, because... it has! Just look at the crusades.

It's the circumstances of the countries in question, their politics and their economics that are the important factors - those are the things that create terrorists. Religion is just an excuse.

Except the difference is that the crusades happened hundreds of years ago and Islamic extremists are still carrying out their "jihads" to this day.

Besides isolated incidents and the problems between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, I have a hard time finding examples that put modern Christianity anywhere near on the same level as modern Islam.

Note that as Arta pointed out Islam is a religion several hundred years younger.

So that means... their people are several hundred years less civilized...?  Is that where we're going with this?

[dxoigmn]

So that means... their people are several hundred years less civilized...?  Is that where we're going with this?

No I didn't say that.  Don't pull a Hazard.  I am saying their religion hasn't had as much time to develop as christianity has.

[CrAz3D]

Why does their religion have to develope?... why can't they develope as human beings on the plant earth?  Are you making excuses for some of these people that kill others because of the styles/tradition of Western Civ?

[dxoigmn]

Why does their religion have to develope?... why can't they develope as human beings on the plant earth?  Are you making excuses for some of these people that kill others because of the styles/tradition of Western Civ?

It doesn't have to develop.  But if someone is going to make a comparison with another religion like DOOM did (which he nearly states that Islam is worse than Christianity), then I'm going to argue give it time like christianity has been given time.  This has nothing to do with people being civilized or not, nor am I making excuses.   I just believe a comparison like DOOM made is inherently flawed.

[Arta]

I think DOOM is putting a rather ngative spin on my comment.

I'm not an expert in this kind of thing, so this might all be bs - but it seems to me like a reasonable idea that religions go through stages of development, and change over time, just the same way everything else does.  Perhaps it's just a coindidence though.

Either way, it doesn't really matter. Islam as a religion is not much different to christianity in its capacity to be abused to support evil things. The crusades are a good example of how Christianity has been used to justify evil, the spanish inquisition is another. I don't think anyone here would claim Christianity to be inherantly evil, and yet people do seem to be making noises in that direction about Islam, even though Christianity has been used to the same effect.

Evil people have the capacity to use whatever religion they follow to justify their rhetoric. It just so happens that at this period in history, it's Islam - and I think the reasons for that are politicial and socioeconomic, and have nothing to do with religion. If Islam were at fault, then all, or at least a majority of Muslims would be fundamentalist crazies - but that's not what we see at all. The vast majority of Muslims are not at all like that, just like the vast majority of Christians have nothing in common with the KKK, or the people who run around killing abortion doctors.

[Adron]

I don't think anyone here would claim Christianity to be inherantly evil,

In a way, I believe that religion is inherently evil, which includes Christianity. I'd also say Christianity is eviller than Buddhism (has more potential for evil).

[CrAz3D]

Religion is evil?!  That has to one of the most lame-brained comments I've ever read!  People are evil, all people.  To what extent of which people are evil varies...some people can be more closed minded & then use religion as a tool...then there are a few people, that I didn't know exsisted until now, that believe religion is evil.  These people that believe something that is so pure can be so vile are the true satanic people of the world, not Bush who supports his country & his home-state schools.

[quasi-modo]

Corrupt Catholic church, Muslim fundamentalists, anyone see a parallel here?

Islam needs a reformation...

Islam needs a new holy book!

[quasi-modo]

So that means... their people are several hundred years less civilized...?  Is that where we're going with this?

No I didn't say that.  Don't pull a Hazard.  I am saying their religion hasn't had as much time to develop as christianity has.

As christianity? Let me make the point again, it was the catholics who launched the crusaids and they formed closer to the time of the founding of Islam.

[quasi-modo]

The crusades are a good example of how Christianity has been used to justify evil, the spanish inquisition is another. I don't think anyone here would claim Christianity to be inherantly evil, and yet people do seem to be making noises in that direction about Islam, even though Christianity has been used to the same effect.

No, they are not. Those are both terrible examples. You are confusing the catholics who are influenced by the pope with a biblical justification.

Infact the crusaids were not even largly justified by religion, at first the whole claim was it was in reponse to muslim aggression IIRC.