D0wn with Levi Strauss & C0.!

[Hazard]

Should homosexuality be instilled in our youth?

No. Should it be tolerated? Yes.

If you don't want to have the possibility of an irreparable problem, shouldn't you remove the threat? Obviously nobody wants to have these young men molested by openly homosexual people, which is a possibility that you must accept however rare it might be, why should the BSA risk it? The fact is that most people wouldn't send their boys off to summer camp with a man that belongs on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and the BSA is simply making it policy.

[Arta]

Maybe the child will be more accepting of their way of life, not just the gay people themselves.  Then maybe the child will want to experiment

1. You don't understand what homosexuality is.
2. Who cares if they do experiment, as long as they do it safely, because...
3. ... someone who isn't gay wouldn't want to experiment in the manner you suggest.
4. What the hell is wrong with people being accepting of other people's lifestyles?

[Arta]

If you don't want to have the possibility of an irreparable problem, shouldn't you remove the threat? Obviously nobody wants to have these young men molested by openly homosexual people, which is a possibility that you must accept however rare it might be, why should the BSA risk it?

Threat? Why is the 'threat' of molestation any higher with a gay supervisor? Is it better to be molested by a straight person than a gay person!?

The fact is that most people wouldn't send their boys off to summer camp with a man that belongs on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and the BSA is simply making it policy.

Codifying prejudice is just plain wrong.

It's a constant source of amazement to me that a country that prides itself on freedom, liberty, justice and equality can express the opinions presented here by Hazard without considering itself to be utterly hypocritical.

The US seems, from an external point of view, to be overflowing with rampant, paranoid ignorance on this issue. Crazed obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, and Hazard is presenting arguments that he would probably consider outrageous if they were about anything other than homosexuality.

I don't understand why you consider prejudice against homosexuals to be acceptable, while -- presumably -- considering prejudice against blacks, jews or women to be completely unacceptable. Would you be supportive of the BSA banning black people on the basis that they might 'instill' into the children the virtues of drugs and gang culture? How about banning women in case the children became feminists, or became tempted to become house-husbands?

To be quite frank, the arguments you have presented here are nonsensical, illogical claptrap of the worst order. I'm starting to wonder if you're just trying to wind me up.

[Hazard]

It amazes you because you don't understand. Equality and justice is guranteed sure, but it does not mean that it is absolute. In my country, gays have the right to the same due process, the same opportunity, the same freedoms, the same liberties that I have thats true, but they are not guranteed to be liked, loved, or even accepted by anyone. Just because they have freedoms doesn't mean I have to like them and it doesn't mean that I cant protect my children from having contact with them. It doesn't mean that I can't speak poorly of them in opinions, it doesn't mean that I can't protest against gay marriage. It certainly doesn't mean that a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION like the BSA can't make a membership requirement against homosexuals. Its a private institution. Homosexuality does not jive with the moral philosophy with the BSA, so why shouldn't it be disallowed?

This is exactly the kind of thing I hear from your foreigners all of the time. You think the freedom that the United States is an absolute freedom to do whatever you want and be applauded for it. You overexpress something that you don't even understand. You people just don't get it. Arta it seems you obviously you know how this country works, but its clear that you don't. You don't live here, you don't deal with these issues everyday. You think that because somebody has the right to say whatever they please in the US that other people have to like it, respect it, and agree with it. Its not true.  You need to understand its a different system than the type that you are used to and you have no clue how it works.

[Blaze]

Boy Scouts of Canada have girls in troups, as long with female leaders. Although Girl Guides of Canada only have girls.

Edit:
This reminds me of that episode of south park when they kicked Big Gay Al out of scouting because they found out he was gay (They couldn't tell my the name ).

I suggest you all watch it, it discusses everything you guys are talking about. (except Levi)

[Arta]

It certainly doesn't mean that a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION like the BSA can't make a membership requirement against homosexuals. Its a private institution. Homosexuality does not jive with the moral philosophy with the BSA, so why shouldn't it be disallowed?

So if they had a moral objection to black people it would be ok to make being white a requirement for membership?

This is exactly the kind of thing I hear from your foreigners all of the time. You think the freedom that the United States is an absolute freedom to do whatever you want and be applauded for it.

No, I don't. I do, however, think that the freedom not to be discriminated against is a tenet of your culture, as it is of mine, and I think your history bares that out. Your country has overcome historic discriminations against women and black people, precisely because those discriminations deny freedoms to sections of your population. Discrimination against gay people is the same thing.

You overexpress something that you don't even understand. You people just don't get it. Arta it seems you obviously you know how this country works, but its clear that you don't. You don't live here, you don't deal with these issues everyday. You think that because somebody has the right to say whatever they please in the US that other people have to like it, respect it, and agree with it. Its not true.  You need to understand its a different system than the type that you are used to and you have no clue how it works.

I understand that it's different -- only too well -- and that's not the point. I'm not talking about free speech, and of course there's no guarantee that people have to like what you say. Although I wouldn't claim to have unbounded, intimate knowledge of US culture, I think I have enough of an understanding to be able to say what I say with authority. If I feel I don't know something well enough to comment, I say so. Remember those discussions about the media?

Don't embark on a 'you just don't understand America' rant just because you have nothing sensible to say. Discrimination and prejudice are what they are, and in this context, they are unjustifiable. The culture surrounding the discrimination never justifies it.

[Adron]

This is exactly the kind of thing I hear from your foreigners all of the time.

I guess it is. We probably thought higher of you than you really deserve. America is a country of prejudice and discrimination. Thanks for clearing that up.


Going back to the point of boy scouts, I don't think the chances of a child being molested by an openly homosexual person is greater than by one that seems heterosexual. A child molester might well have own children, or even be molesting his/her own children.

[Mephisto]

This association with gay people and child molestors is completely absured.

At that, even if the man was gay, doesn't the BSA organization do background checks to make sure the leaders they choose aren't capable of doing such things?

[CrAz3D]

How do I not understand what homosexuality is?  Explain it to me then, I want GOOD explainations.

Some things have to be sacrificed for the greater good.  The movie...A Few Good Men? (Tom Cruise & Jack Nicholson?)---"I want the truth, you can't handle the truth" & so on...that movie makes a VERY good point.  Sure, going to the extent of having someone killed is stepping over the line, but excluding someone from a PRIVATE group isn't.  If EVERYONE should not be discriminated against & should be allowed into whatever group based only upon the fact that they are humans, I then & now demand admittance to Clan vL.  You can't turn me away by basis of me not being a decent programmer as I have no extreme insterest in learning to program.  You can't turn me away because I disagree with how gay people live, that would be discriminating against me too.  So, I demand admittance.


I'm not sure what all goes into accepting a BSA leader, but there has to be some sort of something.  There was a convicted drug leader that had a son in our troop, he was never allowed to be any sort of leader.

[Arta]

How do I not understand what homosexuality is?  Explain it to me then, I want GOOD explainations.

Gay people are attracted to people of the same sex because that's who they are. It's biological. They don't choose to become gay any more than you choose to be heterosexual. A child will not become gay by being around gay people, any more than a gay child will become straight by hanging around straight people. I don't deny that someone could 'become gay' -- in a manner of speaking -- through brainwashing or something like that. Indeed, some gay people seem to 'become straight' by that means. I would challenge anyone who claims that that sort of thing happens on a regular basis, however. Indeed, I would consider it likely that such behaviour is so rare as to be irrelevant. Additionally, I suppose it's possible that a child could become more effeminate by being around effeminate people -- gay or otherwise -- but that's not the same thing as 'becomeing gay'. In fact, I find the whole 'becoming gay' argument pretty silly.

As for the rest of your post, read my responses to Hazard. Should private groups be allowed to discriminate against black people, women, jews, the disabled...?

Your programming analagy doesn't stand up to reason. You can become a good enough programmer to join vL by learning. You could be trained. Your problem isn't because of who you are, it's because of what you know (or in this case, don't know). Thus, your problem is one you can solve, by becoming qualified.

I agree that we can't turn you away for being homophobic.

[CrAz3D]

That is your belief that I am not qualified to join your group.  I do not plan to change myself &^ have decided not to advance in programming, I still should be able to join on the basis that gay people should be able to join scouts because they are not going to change who they are.

[hismajesty]

As for the rest of your post, read my responses to Hazard. Should private groups be allowed to discriminate against black people, women, jews, the disabled...?

If it better serves the group, then yes. The best example in defense of BSA is the Supreme Court case involving Hooters. A guy sued them because he wanted to waitress there and they turned him down due to his gender. The case was taken to the Supreme Court and Hooters won due to the fact that it's customer base wants women surving them - not men. It was, thus, in the best interest of hte company to have only female waitresses.

The same idea, I think, applies to BSA. If I was going to put my child in a group that I thought was going to preach to him good moral values, I sure as hell wouldn't want a gay troop leader teaching these things - that's not a good example - especially when raising your child to be a Christian. It's just not, you can't deny it without lying.

A closer to home example is these forums. If somebody comes here who, to put it nicely, lacks a bit of intelligence/common sense/maturity/etc. what happens? They get flamed continuously until they either are scared away or are banned. For the most part, admins don't protect them. But then, if somebody can hold a semi-intellectual conversation, or they know a bit about technology, etc. most people welcome them with open arms and are nice to them. But everyone is OK with this, because these forums were generally ment for intelligent conversations, and allowing the opposite on a large scale would basically diminish the purpose/credibility of these forums. Sure, this is a much less extreme example but the idea applies.

Another one, why can't somebody like - me, or Mitosis join Valhalla Legends? You guys are, essentially, a private organization. And guess what? Your leaders/members are expected to act a certain way, and posess advanced knowledge in certain subjects (for the most part.) How is that not discrimination against those that aren't as advanced?


Arta, stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

[CrAz3D]

From what I've read at WebMD, only about half of a male's sexual orientaion is decided by genes, the other half by environment.  SO, logically, if a child is raised in a 'straight' environment the child will be much more likely to be 'straight' than if a child was raised in a 'gay' environment.

[CrAz3D]

I do acknowledge not only gay people in scouts would molest/take advantage of children.  But this is just sad

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/29/scouts.charges/index.html

[dxoigmn]

Some things have to be sacrificed for the greater good.  The movie...A Few Good Men? (Tom Cruise & Jack Nicholson?)---"I want the truth, you can't handle the truth" & so on...that movie makes a VERY good point.  Sure, going to the extent of having someone killed is stepping over the line, but excluding someone from a PRIVATE group isn't.  If EVERYONE should not be discriminated against & should be allowed into whatever group based only upon the fact that they are humans, I then & now demand admittance to Clan vL.  You can't turn me away by basis of me not being a decent programmer as I have no extreme insterest in learning to program.  You can't turn me away because I disagree with how gay people live, that would be discriminating against me too.  So, I demand admittance.

So then don't bitch when LS & Co deny funding.