Why do people hate Christians and Jews, but are OK with Muslims and Athiests?

[Hazard]

Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.

You clearly haven't read the bible with an open mind and heart. It has never been church teaching that men are superior to women.

I tend to become conservative when it comes to religion.  Oh the irony!

Conservative or not about religion, its clear you don't understand the bible and have never studied nor read it.

[dxoigmn]

I guess what I'm getting at is many men will use these verses to effectively become masters of their wives as if she was a slave.

And the only cases in which women are oppressed by their husbands occurs in religious households or what are we to infer here?

There is no denying some Christians do this.

Some Muslims do this.  Some Atheists do this.  What's your point?

Hazard makes the point that all Christians are good and don't preach that men are better then women.  This is a gross generalization, and I set out to say that it is.

Since the United States is predominately Christian and yet women have only been allowed to vote for some 80 years, what are we to conclude?

I'm really not sure what we're supposed to conclude either.  Many changes in society have came about because of religious pressure.  Perhaps we should conclude that the voice of Christian love and tolerance finally became overpowering and won the rights of women.  Or maybe we shouldn't make random connections between two things without backing them up.  Keep in mind that women didn't have rights BEFORE the existence of Christianity either.  These are injustices going back thousands of years.  Also, keep in mind that not all men were originally allowed to vote in this country either.  You had to be white and you had to own property.

One of the most obvious reasons for women getting the right to vote was their tremendous contributions to the war effort during World War 1.  With men being sent off in large numbers to get machine gunned down on the front lines, women were needed in the work place, in factories and hospitals.  After the war, it was pretty hard to deny that women couldn't handle the same things that men could.  So you saw a lot of countries (not just the United States) give women the right to vote shortly after World War 1.

Women did have rights before this country allowed them to vote!  This country is historically male-dominated, found with Christian values and yet while you guys profess that women are equal, this very country hasn't seen them as equal for some time.  How does that work?

That the United States is not really Christian?  Or that they are half-Christian?

Who said the United States was Christian?  It was stated that a majority of United States citizens consider themselves Christian, but that isn't the same thing.  And once again, I will point out that this largely Christian nation has given equal rights to women and minorities and ended slavery, all in less than 200 years.  Keep in mind that these injustices had been going on for thousands of years.  I'd say we've made a lot more progress and a lot faster progress than other nations in the world.

Ok ok, the majority of the United States is Christian.  It is the same thing.  The country by itself is nothing without it's constituents.  A country may not formally recognize a religion, but it certainly has a religion. 

I don't hate, but many Christians tend to hate me for many reasons.  They hate being told the truth.

And what exactly is the truth?  That your knowledge of history is limited?

Yep, my knowledge of history is limited.  In fact, I bet you everyone's knowledge of history of limited.

[DOOM]

Hazard makes the point that all Christians are good and don't preach that men are better then women.  This is a gross generalization, and I set out to say that it is.

No, not all Christians are good.  Just like not all Muslims are good and not all Atheists are good.  Religious and other belief systems (political for example) have been abused by a select few over the centuries to further their own agendas.  Some people like to lay the blame on the religion or belief in general, instead of on the individuals, which I believe is fallacious.

Women did have rights before this country allowed them to vote!  This country is historically male-dominated, found with Christian values and yet while you guys profess that women are equal, this very country hasn't seen them as equal for some time.  How does that work?

Historically, the world has been male dominated.  And as I said before, this country has barely been around for 200 years and we've provided equal rights to women and minorities.  If you want to try to somehow make a loose connection between Christianity holding women down in this country, fine, go for it.  But then you have to keep in mind that this Christian country quickly (in the grand scheme of history) fixed thousands of years of injustice.  I would say that that is a credit to the Christian population of this country.  And although you blame Christianity for oppressing women, you do nothing to address the point that the oppression of women was going on long before Christianity came a long.  If we are free to make broad sweeping claims and generalizations, then I think it is clear that Islam is an evil, backward religion, you know, since many Muslim countries still oppress their women.

Yep, my knowledge of history is limited.  In fact, I bet you everyone's knowledge of history of limited.

Some more so than others.

[dxoigmn]

Women did have rights before this country allowed them to vote!  This country is historically male-dominated, found with Christian values and yet while you guys profess that women are equal, this very country hasn't seen them as equal for some time.  How does that work?

Historically, the world has been male dominated.  And as I said before, this country has barely been around for 200 years and we've provided equal rights to women and minorities.  If you want to try to somehow make a loose connection between Christianity holding women down in this country, fine, go for it.  But then you have to keep in mind that this Christian country quickly (in the grand scheme of history) fixed thousands of years of injustice.  I would say that that is a credit to the Christian population of this country.  And although you blame Christianity for oppressing women, you do nothing to address the point that the oppression of women was going on long before Christianity came a long.  If we are free to make broad sweeping claims and generalizations, then I think it is clear that Islam is an evil, backward religion, you know, since many Muslim countries still oppress their women.

People who truely practice Islam do not supress women.  These are the not so "good" Muslims who supress Islam, rather you guys make gross generalizations.  Can you prove that historically the world has been male-dominated?  Before colonialization in the "new world," women were highly regarded, even afforded more rights than men.  It seem to me that historically the western-world has been male dominated.

[Hazard]

They hate being told the truth.

They hate you trying to convince them that your skewed version of truth is undeniably correct and that they are ridiculous in their belief and faith.

[Hazard]

Hazard makes the point that all Christians are good and don't preach that men are better then women.  This is a gross generalization, and I set out to say that it is.

True Christians are good. True Christians don't preach anybody's natural superiority to any other person.

[DOOM]

People who truely practice Islam do not supress women. 

But people who truly practice Christianity oppress women?  You seem more than willing to make sweeping generalizations and Christianity and how it was misused in the past while ignoring the injustices that go on in the Muslim world today.

These are the not so "good" Muslims who supress Islam, rather you guys make gross generalizations. 

We're making gross generalizations?  You can even turn to the Liberal American media and find tons of examples of how Muslim societies treat women.  I did a quick google search and came up with this in a matter of seconds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia  Keep in mind, Saudi Arabi is our "good ally" and one of the more U.S. friendly Middle Eastern nations.

Can you prove that historically the world has been male-dominated?  Before colonialization in the "new world," women were highly regarded, even afforded more rights than men.  It seem to me that historically the western-world has been male dominated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/roman_women_01.shtml

As far as I can tell, women were expected to serve their husbands, be good housewives, be chaste, etc.  Again, just a quick google search.  And not to mention just general knowledge of history (ie: daughters being married off to secure alliances for the king).

If you're going to question my ability to back up my statements, wouldn't it be reasonable for you to in turn back up your counter statements?  Women may have been highly regarded, but I'd like to see some proof that they were more free than men.

[dxoigmn]

People who truely practice Islam do not supress women. 

But people who truly practice Christianity oppress women?  You seem more than willing to make sweeping generalizations and Christianity and how it was misused in the past while ignoring the injustices that go on in the Muslim world today.

No, they don't.  But some do.  That is the point, it's not a black and white situation where Christans good, Muslims bad.

These are the not so "good" Muslims who supress Islam, rather you guys make gross generalizations. 

We're making gross generalizations?  You can even turn to the Liberal American media and find tons of examples of how Muslim societies treat women.  I did a quick google search and came up with this in a matter of seconds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia  Keep in mind, Saudi Arabi is our "good ally" and one of the more U.S. friendly Middle Eastern nations.

Key word: Muslim societies, I mentioned the religion Islam.

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2966

Can you prove that historically the world has been male-dominated?  Before colonialization in the "new world," women were highly regarded, even afforded more rights than men.  It seem to me that historically the western-world has been male dominated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/roman_women_01.shtml

As far as I can tell, women were expected to serve their husbands, be good housewives, be chaste, etc.  Again, just a quick google search.  And not to mention just general knowledge of history (ie: daughters being married off to secure alliances for the king).

If you're going to question my ability to back up my statements, wouldn't it be reasonable for you to in turn back up your counter statements?  Women may have been highly regarded, but I'd like to see some proof that they were more free than men.

A quote from your source:

How do we know about women's work? From men saying in print what women should be doing...

So men are telling women what they should be doing.

In any case though, you provided a source about a western civilization.  If you look at the haudenosaunee (Iroquois as you probably know them), you'll find Women owning property, you'll see them in government making critical decions, children will take the mother's name, women play a huge role in the creation story.  In fact, all those properties I described are inherent in most all indigenous tribes in America.  Even in purification, the man is considered inferior as the women has a mechanism to cleanse herself.  These values last to this very day.

[quasi-modo]

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man. No hierarchy there.

Good job being ignorant.

Good job of breaking the forum rules.  Attack the argument not the person.

Its not an attack. You do not know what you are talking about. Therefore you must be ignorant about the subject matter. Its different from being called stupid.

[DOOM]

No, they don't.  But some do.  That is the point, it's not a black and white situation where Christans good, Muslims bad.

I honestly don't know where I or anyone else claimed that all Christians were good and all Muslims were bad.

Key word: Muslim societies, I mentioned the religion Islam.

That's a pretty narrow distinction you're clinging to.

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2966

So, basically this guy is blaming Western Civilization for "forcing" Muslims to deny women their rights?  Why did these women need so much "protection?"  The author just got done mentioning in the previous section that there were women warriors.  Surely these much respected warrior women could defend themselves.

And regardless of what he says that doesn't negate interviews with the women on these countries.  I was watching a BBC (I believe) documentery on the Taliban and what they did to women.  It included many interviews of women who had lived through the brutality and oppression of the Taliban.

So men are telling women what they should be doing.

In any case though, you provided a source about a western civilization.  If you look at the haudenosaunee (Iroquois as you probably know them), you'll find Women owning property, you'll see them in government making critical decions, children will take the mother's name, women play a huge role in the creation story.  In fact, all those properties I described are inherent in most all indigenous tribes in America.  Even in purification, the man is considered inferior as the women has a mechanism to cleanse herself.  These values last to this very day.

You asked if there was historical evidence for men oppressing women in general, not just for historical evidence in western civilization.

That some cultures developed the idea of equal rights towards women first isn't really the issue.  The point is that there are still large problems with women's rights in the Middle East, Asia, etc. and that this "oppressing women" idea wasn't some brand new idea some evil Christian came up with.

[quasi-modo]

Because in general Christians and Jews are a uniting force who do not set up a designated hierarchy, when Muslims preach men's superiority to women, Islamic persons superiority to all others, call for the destruction of the Jewish state, etc. Atheists just because people don't want to deal with the hot-bed that is atheism.

Funny because I could have sworn the bible said women were created from man and for man and the husband rules over the wife's body and the wife must be submissive, and no women is allowed to teach or have authority over man.  No hierarchy there.

Yeah... not really. It says that the man is supposed to love his wife like Jesus loves the church. He is supposed to serve her and she is supposed to serve him. It is to be a sacrificial love, you make sacrifices for eachother. I will get the verses if you like. Hebrews is packed full of verses about marriage and how to raise a family/children. Yes man is the head of the house hold, but that does not make the woman inferior and does not mean she has to walk behind him.

I guess what I'm getting at is many men will use these verses to effectively become masters of their wives as if she was a slave.  There is no denying some Christians do this.  Since the United States is predominately Christian and yet women have only been allowed to vote for some 80 years, what are we to conclude?  That the United States is not really Christian?  Or that they are half-Christian?

I don't hate, but many Christians tend to hate me for many reasons.  They hate being told the truth.

Wait wait, because the man has always been the head of the household and the man owns the property so he is allowed to vote he is then a slave master? Just because a woman is not allowed to vote does not make her a slave. If you think this is slavery reexamine your definition of the word.

You just hate the fact that christians think you are ignorant because you try to act like you understand the religion better then they do when you have not read or studied the bible and you write off the religion as a bunch of bs because your parents, friends, television, or whatever has put that image in your mind.

[dxoigmn]

I honestly don't know where I or anyone else claimed that all Christians were good and all Muslims were bad.

The general tone of this thread is just that.  If it were not, then why are we bothering going over there to "save" them?

That's a pretty narrow distinction you're clinging to.

But that's doesn't mean you go off on a tangent and argue about something I'm not saying.

So, basically this guy is blaming Western Civilization for "forcing" Muslims to deny women their rights?  Why did these women need so much "protection?"  The author just got done mentioning in the previous section that there were women warriors.  Surely these much respected warrior women could defend themselves.

They needed protection from outside people's influence.  If you hold a women to be sacred, would not gaurd her?  I mean, if you hold anything to be sacred, would you not guard it?

And regardless of what he says that doesn't negate interviews with the women on these countries.  I was watching a BBC (I believe) documentery on the Taliban and what they did to women.  It included many interviews of women who had lived through the brutality and oppression of the Taliban.

No it doesn't negate those interviews, but it also wise to look at the cause of something, how it came about.

You asked if there was historical evidence for men oppressing women in general, not just for historical evidence in western civilization.

I said the world as a whole as you professed.  One counter-example to that nullifies you argument as I showed.

That some cultures developed the idea of equal rights towards women first isn't really the issue.  The point is that there are still large problems with women's rights in the Middle East, Asia, etc. and that this "oppressing women" idea wasn't some brand new idea some evil Christian came up with.

It may not be some new idea some Christian came up with, but they certainly spread it.

[dxoigmn]

Its not an attack. You do not know what you are talking about. Therefore you must be ignorant about the subject matter. Its different from being called stupid.

It's an attack.  The general connotation of ignorant is meant as an attack.  If he had included some evidence to back up the fact that I am ignorant of the issue, then I would have not seen it that way.  But he didn't.

Wait wait, because the man has always been the head of the household and the man owns the property so he is allowed to vote he is then a slave master? Just because a woman is not allowed to vote does not make her a slave. If you think this is slavery reexamine your definition of the word.

When did I say slaverly is when someone is not able to vote?

You just hate the fact that christians think you are ignorant because you try to act like you understand the religion better then they do when you have not read or studied the bible and you write off the religion as a bunch of bs because your parents, friends, television, or whatever has put that image in your mind.

I don't try to understand the religion better than they do.  I just argue against what they believe from what I know historically people have done in the name of Christianity/Jesus.  I don't write off religion because of my parents, friends, television, or whatever, I dislike it because of what it has done to my people.  Christianity is great in theory, but bad in practice.  It's like communism, except I actually like communism.

[Hazard]

The long and short of it is dxoigmn is very good at misconstuing what you say.

[j0k3r]

I dislike it because of what it has done to my people. Christianity is great in theory, but bad in practice. It's like communism, except I actually like communism.

Really, I would love to hear this.