Carefully Crafted Response to How to...

[Adron]

What about circumcision? Who remembers being circumcised at birth? Probably nobody, but is that a reason to allow the killing of babies directly after birth? Nahh.

If I knew anyone with the experience... But yes, smothering babies directly after birth isn't that bad either. It has been a regular part of some cultures I hear.

[WoOdTroll]

I just figure they should get it over with instead of more developments. You know second thoughts etc.

[Warrior]

Do you pick flowers? Do you hit nails on their heads?

Rephrasing that:

Do you really want to kill something (Human since we are talking about abortion) which did nothing to deserve it and couldn't help the fact that it existed?

If it is for the better - sure! Any time!

For once, I actually think woodtroll made a very good post. The 3 month limit is a bit arbitrary, but..

I don't see how killing ...a baby (fetus, infant, toddler, whatever)..is for the better.

[Adron]

If it is for the better - sure! Any time!

I don't see how killing ...a baby (fetus, infant, toddler, whatever)..is for the better.

Ah, central point! When is it for the better? When the fetus would grow into a forever sick human? (Do we want humans to be well?) When it would be hated and disliked? (Do we want humans to be loved?)

I agree with many different reasons for having an abortion.

[Rule]

What about circumcision? Who remembers being circumcised at birth? Probably nobody, but is that a reason to allow the killing of babies directly after birth? Nahh.

If I knew anyone with the experience... But yes, smothering babies directly after birth isn't that bad either. It has been a regular part of some cultures I hear.

That is fairly horrible.  Just because you may not have a memory of being born in the hospital doesn't mean that you weren't conscious and thinking at the time.  Would it have been ok to kill you 94 days ago at lunchtime because right now you don't remember what you ate that day?

On a more general note, it does not follow that if we don't remember something that we weren't conscious at that particular time; any arguments that rely on that point are completely fallacious.


---

I think one of the main reasons this debate over abortion is such a controversial one is because we (biologists) do not have a very good definition of life; it is just a vague intuitive notion that we have.  At what point is the fertilized egg a living creature?  At what point do we consider it intelligent?  Is it valid to use the argument "while something cannot [        ] now, it has the potential to [       ] later, and hence meets that criterion for being a living organism."  By the same token, could I not say that it is my moral obligation to impregnate many people?

[WoOdTroll]

Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.

[Rule]

That's a very emotional argument.  Please try to bring up some logical points next time, and also read my post which is obviously neither conspicuously for nor against abortion.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.

Um, brown-nosing means being sycophantic.

[WoOdTroll]

Down here it means that you snoop in shit you shouldn't.

[Explicit]

Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.

The problem with your argument is that you did just what Rule said, and offered no logical points to defend your side.  To address your scenario though, you could put the child up for adoption.

[MyndFyre]

Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.

The problem with your argument is that you did just what Rule said, and offered no logical points to defend your side.  To address your scenario though, you could put the child up for adoption.

Or, in Arizona, it is legal to leave a baby outside of any fire station.  No questions asked, they won't try to find you, or anything.  If you don't want your child, at least give it the chance to live.

[Explicit]

Listen man. What would you do if you were a 15 year old, and got a 14/15 year old girl pregnant? Would you consider abortion if you two really didn't want a child? Of course. Like I said if you cant support it, why have it? Who do you think is going to support that? Imagine 15 years old, and you still live with your parents etc. You're not even responsible enough for a child yet, that or dont have alot of time for it. Children needs lots of attention, are you going to do that? A child is a huge responsiblity, and a handicap. I think if anyone who isn't able to take on that responsibility should have an abortion.

And its not cruel or anything its fucking life. People die for stupid shit all the time. Live, and let live. Its not your business if that person wants to have an abortion, ITS their baby, not yours. You should have your mouth shut at all times. All you're is an opinion to them.

And if you don't mind your own business then you're a brown noser.

The problem with your argument is that you did just what Rule said, and offered no logical points to defend your side.  To address your scenario though, you could put the child up for adoption.

Or, in Arizona, it is legal to leave a baby outside of any fire station. No questions asked, they won't try to find you, or anything. If you don't want your child, at least give it the chance to live.

I did not know that.  Are there any other states that allow for this?

[Adron]

That is fairly horrible.  Just because you may not have a memory of being born in the hospital doesn't mean that you weren't conscious and thinking at the time.  Would it have been ok to kill you 94 days ago at lunchtime because right now you don't remember what you ate that day?

To me it would have been OK. It would have been a loss to the state, to my employers and to people I know though. That would be the reason not to kill me.

I think one of the main reasons this debate over abortion is such a controversial one is because we (biologists) do not have a very good definition of life; it is just a vague intuitive notion that we have.  At what point is the fertilized egg a living creature?  At what point do we consider it intelligent?  Is it valid to use the argument "while something cannot [        ] now, it has the potential to [       ] later, and hence meets that criterion for being a living organism."  By the same token, could I not say that it is my moral obligation to impregnate many people?

I think another problem is that we are so illogical about life. We value human life more than other life, even when there is no logical reason to do so.

[Rule]

I think another problem is that we are so illogical about life. We value human life more than other life, even when there is no logical reason to do so.

I completely agree.  I value animal life as much as, if not more than, human life.

[WoOdTroll]

My logical point is, its their choice, accept it. If they dont want a child, then they dont want a child. Who are you, to go to them, and be like "murderer" ? I think murder is killing a baby that was just recently born, or other means of killing. Quit being sensitive about the subject. Is it fair for the other sex to have to pay for something they didn't want?

And for adoption? They'll obviously want to find their real parents one day, so might aswell just kill the no-brain baby before they pull some type of rukus in the future.

[CrAz3D]

I think another problem is that we are so illogical about life. We value human life more than other life, even when there is no logical reason to do so.

I completely agree.  I value animal life as much as, if not more than, human life.

People like animals because they are innocent.

BUT, tell me you've never killed a fly, never hit a bird while driving, never stomped a roach into the ground.