Stem cell research

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Maybe it's because I've been only presented with one viewpoint in ultraliberal Massachusetts, but it seems to me that there's not a good argument against embryonic stem cell research, when there are embryos being destroyed at fertility clinics anyway. Can someone elaborate on this?

[hismajesty]

religion or something, I haven't heard a really solid argument against it either.

[shout]

It seems that Bush has a problem killing things that do not yet have conciousness, yet he is okay going to war and killing thousands.

Note: I am not saying we should'nt be going to war, I am just pointing out a conflict. That is for another thread.

I have not heared any good reason for banning gay marrige either.

[CrAz3D]

uhm...as trust has saod before, the Bush admin is the only admin ever to allocate federal funding for stem cell research

[dxoigmn]

uhm...as trust has saod before, the Bush admin is the only admin ever to allocate federal funding for stem cell research

So what's your point? Stem cell research has only recently boomed in the past few years, so it is a relatively new field still in it's infancy. Bush had to allocate the funds due to the potential that stem cell research has. But in any case, many scientists don't like the restrictions set forth for federal funding.

[CrAz3D]

Then maybe they should go screw themselves?

[Master_Nabo]

Maybe it's because I've been only presented with one viewpoint in ultraliberal Massachusetts, but it seems to me that there's not a good argument against embryonic stem cell research, when there are embryos being destroyed at fertility clinics anyway. Can someone elaborate on this?

It's one of those things that go back to the religious idea of "Can We Play God", but going with that idea, should we help someone who has cancer or mend a broken arm when someone breaks it, because it was "God's Will"?

Religion should be held as an idea, and not brought into science and research and definately not government, but in this it seems it is.  If we ban stem cell research, whats next?  Are they going to arrest a teenager because he wacked off and killed billions of sperm that could have become a person? 

I know this seems stupid, but there should be some common ground, like in the first post.  If they are going to die anyways, why not use them for research?  I could understand if someone just wanted to get pregnant and cell that fetus for money, that could be concitered wrong.  But if they merely are going to trash it, why not study it?

This is one of the reasons I dislike politics.

[Topaz]

It's one of those things that go back to the religious idea of "Can We Play God", but going with that idea, should we help someone who has cancer or mend a broken arm when someone breaks it, because it was "God's Will"?

Nabeshin, you're picking at straws. Those don't apply at all, because playing God is supposedly beyond the human scope. Accidents also happen, and God has nothing to do with consequence, he(?) sets things in motion and stands back. Read the Bible sometime, maybe you'll then know what you're talking about.

Religion should be held as an idea, and not brought into science and research and definately not government, but in this it seems it is.  If we ban stem cell research, whats next?  Are they going to arrest a teenager because he wacked off and killed billions of sperm that could have become a person? 

Your argument is foolish; sperm are not sentient and unaware of their own existence. Sperms usually die after fertilizing the egg, and therefore really has no existence. What we're talking about is messing with embryos and things that will become self-aware. Bringing that child that was "going to die anyways" to life should be a crime; it(?) was not supposed to be alive, and living in a controlled enviroment all your life, being studied or used is not a way to live. Stem cell research is not banned, so what are you worried about? Also, Religion is intertwined with science and government, mostly as many things that are held as God-created are un-explained and will remain that way for a good while. Why would religion be an idea? It's a way of life and a testament of HOW to live. You need to explain yourself, or make sense at the least.

I know this seems stupid, but there should be some common ground, like in the first post.  If they are going to die anyways, why not use them for research?  I could understand if someone just wanted to get pregnant and cell that fetus for money, that could be concitered wrong.  But if they merely are going to trash it, why not study it?

You're playing the fool now - we aren't talking about cattle or livestock, its about humans - Sentient beings. The old saying comes to mind now: Do unto others what you would wish for them to do unto you. Would you enjoy being treated as property and treated as simply a tool? Living in a padded room, studied?

Maybe you don't like politics because you don't understand it. Don't hurt yourself thinking, ok?

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

It seems that Bush has a problem killing things that do not yet have conciousness, yet he is okay going to war and killing thousands.

Shut the hell up. People like you are why I'm not a democrat.

[Adron]

It's one of those things that go back to the religious idea of "Can We Play God", but going with that idea, should we help someone who has cancer or mend a broken arm when someone breaks it, because it was "God's Will"?

Nabeshin, you're picking at straws. Those don't apply at all, because playing God is supposedly beyond the human scope. Accidents also happen, and God has nothing to do with consequence, he(?) sets things in motion and stands back. Read the Bible sometime, maybe you'll then know what you're talking about.

God sets things in motion. He showed us one way for humans to reproduce, and set us up with intelligent minds and a desire to learn, so that we would one day we would be able to clone each other. God sets things in motion and stands back, waiting for, and hoping for, the time when humans will be able to clone to procreate.


Well, that, or God knows and controls everything that happens, down to the smallest insect. If your harvest goes wrong, it's God's will. Obviously there's a purpose to it. Maybe he does not want you to get too fat? Who are you to stand against his will when there's a drought? All this artifical watering is really just artifical insemination of the earth.

If you break a leg, maybe it means he wants you to slow down and lead a slow life, not for some human to play God and put you back together? All these humans healing people, something obviously reserved for God's representatives, that's just an affront to God's will.

Your argument is foolish; sperm are not sentient and unaware of their own existence. Sperms usually die after fertilizing the egg, and therefore really has no existence.

Sperms do not die. They shed their previous shells and move on to be a part of a greater existence. Besides, embryos are not sentient, and they are unaware of their own existence.

You're playing the fool now - we aren't talking about cattle or livestock, its about humans - Sentient beings.

We're not talking about sentient beings. We're talking about a few cells with no self-awareness.

[Topaz]

ROFL!
"He showed us one way for humans to reproduce, and set us up with intelligent minds and a desire to learn, so that we would one day we would be able to clone each other." That's one for the quote stack, fo'sure.

Where did you pick that up? He being the being that he is, how can you fathom what his thoughts and his hopes and what he waits for? How can you pass judgement, being a mortal compared to an infinite being? It completely boggles my mind.

Don't contradict yourself - If he sets things in motion, and stands back, then how does he control everything that happens? Once he sets everything in motion, then its all waiting.

Once again, I don't see how you can pass judgement. If your harvest goes wrong, you don't lose weight - You lose your farm and probably go without food for months. What do you mean by artificial watering? Irrigation? It seems plenty natural to me, and a whole lot less back pain when you get old. It's not as if its hurting the earth, as you're implying - It's just a faster means of transporting the water back to the earth.

How are humans playing God when healing the sick and the wounded? I fail to see what you're getting at.

[shout]

It's one of those things that go back to the religious idea of "Can We Play God", but going with that idea, should we help someone who has cancer or mend a broken arm when someone breaks it, because it was "God's Will"?

Nabeshin, you're picking at straws. Those don't apply at all, because playing God is supposedly beyond the human scope. Accidents also happen, and God has nothing to do with consequence, he(?) sets things in motion and stands back. Read the Bible sometime, maybe you'll then know what you're talking about.

God sets things in motion. He showed us one way for humans to reproduce, and set us up with intelligent minds and a desire to learn, so that we would one day we would be able to clone each other. God sets things in motion and stands back, waiting for, and hoping for, the time when humans will be able to clone to procreate.


Well, that, or God knows and controls everything that happens, down to the smallest insect. If your harvest goes wrong, it's God's will. Obviously there's a purpose to it. Maybe he does not want you to get too fat? Who are you to stand against his will when there's a drought? All this artifical watering is really just artifical insemination of the earth.

If you break a leg, maybe it means he wants you to slow down and lead a slow life, not for some human to play God and put you back together? All these humans healing people, something obviously reserved for God's representatives, that's just an affront to God's will.

That makes perfect sense. I have no idea what you are talking about Topaz. You are not looking at the big picture, you are looking at your own narrow-minded veiw of what is against god and what is not against god.

Sperms do not die. They shed their previous shells and move on to be a part of a greater existence. Besides, embryos are not sentient, and they are unaware of their own existence.

What about the sperm that do not fertilize? They just live in the birth canal for all time?

It seems that Bush has a problem killing things that do not yet have conciousness, yet he is okay going to war and killing thousands.

Shut the hell up. People like you are why I'm not a democrat.

It's not true then?

[Adron]

Where did you pick that up? He being the being that he is, how can you fathom what his thoughts and his hopes and what he waits for? How can you pass judgement, being a mortal compared to an infinite being? It completely boggles my mind.

How can you pass judgement, being a mortal compared to an infinite being? How can you fathom what his thoughts and his hopes are and what he waits for? Who are you to say that we should not be cloning humans?

Irrigation? It seems plenty natural to me, and a whole lot less back pain when you get old. It's not as if its hurting the earth, as you're implying - It's just a faster means of transporting the water back to the earth.

Cloning? It seems plenty natural to me, and a whole lot less back pain when you get old. It's not as if its hurting the earth, as you're implying - It's just a faster means of producing offspring, or helping people with serious diseases / defects get a normal life.

[Hostile]

I can only post my viewpoint on the subject. There are three aspects which people object to this for:

1: Abortion-esque...Basically, being against this is about 10 times worse then being against abortion. There are complications (if people started allowing cloning and the like) that could kill almost living beings.

2: "Playing God"... Well my view is that if God didn't want this to happen, even if it could lead to being able to cure alot of pain in the world, then God won't allow it to happen, or give us the knowledge to do it.

3: "Theres no proof that this could ever help us, so why bother(spending money)." - The people who use this argument are by far the dumbest of them all. They're upright saying, We don't know yet, lets just give up. They can burn in hell, IMHO.

I wish we did more of this. I actually supported Bush through this War crap which I don't totally agree with. I loved his Social Security plan. But when he gives out 674 Million dollars, that we payed for.... and then cuts all federal funding of stem cell research. (Which you could thank for saving your life, or you childrens life some day) then you have officially crossed the line, in my book.

[Topaz]

I believe that we shouldn't be cloning because its utterly against my set of moral and ethics. You need to draw a line where humans can go and cannot go. Also, I'm entitled to my opinion as you are yours, however twisted yours happens to be.

And really, who wants to grow up with an older You? That's funny, as cloning is not modifying genes, its copying the original's complete genetic makeup and putting it in another human's body to grow normally. Another question: How is cloning going to help people live normal or better lives? Creating specific body parts, or engineering entire human beings for use as spare parts? You're going to need to answer to yourself, not me, on that one. Do you consider it morally right to create and destroy humans at a whim? Are you truly that selfish, that self serving, to act as a god?