Stem cell research

[Topaz]

Killing thousands to save thousands?

[Arta]

Killing thousands to save thousands?

A stem cell is not a person. It will never be a person. Stems cells come from embryos that are going to be thrown away anyway.

[Topaz]

An embryo is a fertilized egg, which will eventually grow into a living, breathing human being. Unless it's aborted, of course. How is it going to be thrown away anyway?

[Hitmen]

That's what he's talking about -- the stem cells that would be used come from aborted fetuses.

[shout]

An embryo is a fertilized egg, which will eventually grow into a living, breathing human being. Unless it's aborted, of course. How is it going to be thrown away anyway?

Lets say a woman is infertile. One way they let women like that have lil babies is to enseminate the eggs outside of the body. And not just one. They do something like 40 I think. Now, a woman is not going to have 40 kids all at once. They take one of the successfully fertilized eggs and do away with the rest.

There is one diffrence between the embryo of a human and the embryo of any other multi-celluar creature: the number of chromosomes (spelling?). That's it. The rest of it is all the same.

A chicken egg is a fertilized egg, which will eventually grow into a living, breathing, chicken. But you are going to eat one! How horrid!

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Shout, that's a question of ethics, which you're obviously unaware of.

[shout]

Shout, that's a question of ethics, which you're obviously unaware of.

It's something I am very well aware of. But I don't understand why it is. And everyone will tell me the same thing 'Because of what it will be'. I don't find that to be a compelling enough argument, just like you don't find my comment about Bush to be a compelling enough argument.

Ethics is something that should be brought into question alot; but it seems the only time it is, religion gets involved as well. And most religions are not represented on these forums, (or races), the grand majority being white christians from the U.S. There is not really much diversity, it just seems there are those for and those against, and almost always the line is drawn at what you can and can't do in Christianity.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Well, people and chickens are different. It is OK to slaughter chickens to feed people, not vice versa. Sorry. This isn't a religious thing, either.

And, Shout, I'm not at odds with you about this one either...I think I support stem cell research (haven't heard a good argument against it yet)

[nslay]

Stem cells needn't be taken from the embryo...a company in Arizona has been accepting umbilical cords for preservation for the past 5-10 years.  The issue at hand is not whether we can use stem cells, its where we get them.  On a 60 minutes episode 5 or so years ago, they had a piece on a little boy who used stem cell treatment to cure sickle cell anaemia.  The results were profound, not only did the little boy become cured of his ailment, his blood type changed from O to B...it literally restructured his blood system.  This is phenominal...nobody knows why this happened or how it works.  I believe they ought be studied, but I also believe that to prevent huge political and social issues, we should just stick to gathering them from the umbilical cord.  Why must it be the embryo?

It is my belief that cloning shouldn't be done on humans because we do not understand the reppercussions of cloning, it degrades the meaning of humanity, and it causes social uproars.  Recall Dolly who died mysteriously.  Besides, there isn't a point to cloning humans.  Unless, you want to treat human beings as spare parts...and that is inhumane (even to the nonreligious).  However, microbiologists clone cells everyday...pretty neat huh?  This does have a purpose though, microbiologists use bacteria as tools to accomplish tasks, from preserving paintings to manipulate a bacteria that cleanly generate Vitamins (used for nutrition to farm animals).  Off topic, but I've actually seen DNA extracted, you can see it with the naked eye...it is a thin strand of white stuff (sorry, there is no cool helix or neat little colored balls).
Furthermore, human beings are intelligent creatures, there could be serious psychological problems with a human who is aware that he/she was born in a test tube and was a copy of someone else rather than being truly unique.  And the thought of objectifying the reproduction process is apalling.  What meaning does human reproduction have if it becomes a lab experiment (remember, humans are intelligent beings, if we were to meaninglessly reproduce, we would indeed resemble animals in that aspect)?  Anyhow, its probably more fun to reproduce naturally.

Advance medical knowledge you say?  We don't even know how a majority of the body works now...let's start there!  Besides, if cloning is useless to begin with (unless you want to talk about manufacturing ideal humans to do certain jobs) then there is no point to tamper with it.

[Adron]

The point in "tampering" with cloning is to learn what can be done. We do not know now how far we will be able to get, but if we don't try, we will never know.

[nslay]

The point in "tampering" with cloning is to learn what can be done. We do not know now how far we will be able to get, but if we don't try, we will never know.

If it's that necessary, let's get cloning on animals perfect first, this way we have less chance of messing up another human being needlessly.   
Really, I don't really see why we need to test the limits of cloning (especially on humans, I doubt we should be messing with this stuff)...I mean it literally has no point.  Why don't we focus our attention on the brain and AI...perhaps we can use AI to study mental disorders that occurr in the brain in a way that could never be done before.

If we should test the limits of everything, why don't we figure the maximum velocity of two african swallows and a coconut.

[shout]

I mean it literally has no point.  Why don't we focus our attention on the brain and AI...perhaps we can use AI to study mental disorders that occurr in the brain in a way that could never be done before.

There is definatly a point to stem cell research. Think of Downs Syndrome, which is a genetic disorder. Stem cell research can help people avoid disorders like this, and potentially reverse the damage.

What people do not seem to realize is that the research is not conducted on humans. It can be performed on the results of failed artificial ensemination, umbilical cords, and aborted fetuses, all of which are thrown in a trash can somewhere anyway. The researchers are not stealing babies from mother's wombs.

If we should test the limits of everything, why don't we figure the maximum velocity of two african swallows and a coconut.

That's a high school physics problem...

[nslay]

I mean it literally has no point.  Why don't we focus our attention on the brain and AI...perhaps we can use AI to study mental disorders that occurr in the brain in a way that could never be done before.

There is definatly a point to stem cell research. Think of Downs Syndrome, which is a genetic disorder. Stem cell research can help people avoid disorders like this, and potentially reverse the damage.

What people do not seem to realize is that the research is not conducted on humans. It can be performed on the results of failed artificial ensemination, umbilical cords, and aborted fetuses, all of which are thrown in a trash can somewhere anyway. The researchers are not stealing babies from mother's wombs.

If we should test the limits of everything, why don't we figure the maximum velocity of two african swallows and a coconut.

That's a high school physics problem...

agreed

It cured sickle cell anaemia in a child...there is definately a motive to research stem cells.
I just don't know why we have to get them from embryos when we can get them from umbilical cords without a problem from anyone.

[Hostile]

Exactly! It is an outrage to not further study stem cell research. Just because something could potentially be used negatively doesn't mean that you can just disregard all its positive potential. If the research gets to the point where people are messing around with cloning I have no doubt that there will be laws put in place to limit the inhumane. To limit all of the research together is just highly concerning, as you're stopping the development of your own race. Limiting yourself to be substandard even knowing that you can do better.

Personally, I think it all comes down to your view on life. Some people think they can ignore the facts, focus on ideals like God and live in denial, in hopes of maintaining a simple (to their own understanding) and manageable lifestyle.

My view on life is eventually, the Sun shall implode. I would love to knowingly admit that if we just kept a simple, non-progressing lifestyle, that we would all be happy, knowing thats all that counts in the end, but eventually humanity would no longer exist. So we must progress, part of that comes with killing off diseases that our own progression created, all while making sure we don't kill ourselves off first (radiation/global warming/ect). I'm perfectly content knowing I personally won't live forever. Whether or not we live through our own memories or through our offspring, I just can't die knowing that when my life flashes before my eyes I did absolutely nothing to contribute to what I feel must preserve humanity.

Basically, I have chosen the role I wish to play. The sooner you realize that the guy I just said who believes in God and lives in denial is about as important is me is the real complicated part. The picture is bigger then our own lives, some people need to do stupid things in their life so that we may learn from them, no matter how major. Other take the route of caring for a large family and much like the concept of a teacher, "pass it on" to the next generation, giving them a chance to choose their own path, and there for molding them into their own personality.

We have no idea how strong or smart we will need to be to maintain humanity in the future. Which is why we all need to play our own roles, in hope that enough people have taken direct approaches, to come to a solution. All while having whiney people to make sure we don't get too reckless.

[nslay]

Exactly! It is an outrage to not further study stem cell research. Just because something could potentially be used negatively doesn't mean that you can just disregard all its positive potential. If the research gets to the point where people are messing around with cloning I have no doubt that there will be laws put in place to limit the inhumane. To limit all of the research together is just highly concerning, as you're stopping the development of your own race. Limiting yourself to be substandard even knowing that you can do better.

Personally, I think it all comes down to your view on life. Some people think they can ignore the facts, focus on ideals like God and live in denial, in hopes of maintaining a simple (to their own understanding) and manageable lifestyle.

My view on life is eventually, the Sun shall implode. I would love to knowingly admit that if we just kept a simple, non-progressing lifestyle, that we would all be happy, knowing thats all that counts in the end, but eventually humanity would no longer exist. So we must progress, part of that comes with killing off diseases that our own progression created, all while making sure we don't kill ourselves off first (radiation/global warming/ect). I'm perfectly content knowing I personally won't live forever. Whether or not we live through our own memories or through our offspring, I just can't die knowing that when my life flashes before my eyes I did absolutely nothing to contribute to what I feel must preserve humanity.

Basically, I have chosen the role I wish to play. The sooner you realize that the guy I just said who believes in God and lives in denial is about as important is me is the real complicated part. The picture is bigger then our own lives, some people need to do stupid things in their life so that we may learn from them, no matter how major. Other take the route of caring for a large family and much like the concept of a teacher, "pass it on" to the next generation, giving them a chance to choose their own path, and there for molding them into their own personality.

We have no idea how strong or smart we will need to be to maintain humanity in the future. Which is why we all need to play our own roles, in hope that enough people have taken direct approaches, to come to a solution. All while having whiney people to make sure we don't get too reckless.

You can believe in God without living in "denial."  Those who believe in God are living as much of an assumption as those who don't believe in God.  Those who argue for God are just as bad as those who argue against God.  And you (in general) slap the religious?  How ironic when you are apart of a group that has its own belief system.  However, I think it is a crime to be spoonfed beliefs ... it's one thing to know and understand what you believe and be able to arrive at the same conclusions, and its another to regurgitate what you are taught.   The Catholic Church has a book on its beliefs called the Catechism, it is particularly useful to look up reasonings as to why certain things are believed to be true (in the Church) and with any claim there is a citation.  The Church is a very logical organization (perhaps there is corruption).  Now, I haven't seen anywhere where "the Sun will implode" is denied as a fact in the Church ... I haven't seen any scientific claim made by the Church (I do know the Church claimed the Earth was the center of the universe hundreds of years ago ... it was overturned, actually its funny, but quite recently...councils take a lot of time to process things).  I suppose its habit for some people of the Church to be skeptical of scientific studies, but I don't observe this in the Church.  It's only when science hits certain "soft spots" that it questions.  Really, 5-10 years ago when science was doing research on stem cells, no one had a problem because the cells were taken from the umbilical cord.  Of course people will cause a fuss over taking them from embryos though, religious and non religious alike!