Pat Tillman, yet again

[Tuberload]

Lets try a classic example so I can try and get a feel for what you believe in. Lets say you are in a circular room 20 feet in diameter. There are 6 people in that room, one elderly woman and one elderly man, yourself, a small child and her young mother, and, say a man almost exactly like yourself, and you are all spaced equally from each other against the walls of the room. I place a grenade exactly in the center of the room, 10 feet from each of you. Would you jump on the grenade yourself, and die while saving the lives of all the others? Lets assume that you and five others exactly like yourself were in the situation. Would you dive on the grenade then? Or do you just leave that job to somebody else, since your life is more valuable than the lives of others?

You know I was with you until you said that. I would turn around and get the hell out of there, and hope everyone else in the room was smart enough to do the same thing. You didn't specify whether we were trapped or not, so until you do that is my answer.

Adron:
I agree with what you are saying about if everyone was a hero than what would be so special about it. What I don't agree with is your tendency to say that the troops over there are not putting themselves in significant danger. I don't know of any technology so far that will keep a well-placed stray bullet from blowing someone's brains out, or an rpg from blowing a soldier to pieces.

You also talk about soldiers getting paid... Every movie I have ever seen with a hero in it, the hero got rewarded (paid) in one fashion or another, so I don't see the difference.

I am at a loss for words hear, but I do think there should be a separation from the soldiers who join, but don't do anything extraordinary, and the soldiers that rise up above the rest and perform there duties when no one else would. Perhaps we could use the words Hero, and Superhero, or something and hero. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. The point comes down to that I feel anyone who joins the military and goes into active duty combat (that includes anyone put in harms way be it marines or supply convoys) is a hero of some sort. Perhaps we should try and throw a few more definitions into the discussion.

Arta:
I am going to use extreme examples here, so please don't think I am attacking you.

I don't see your accusations of American's as any different than me saying the most of the world is a bunch of cowards not willing to stand up for freedom... Oh shit, things are getting crazy let's run away.

I am a very patriotic person, and I do what I feel is right. I don't back down to the demands of others, and I don't feel that makes me a self-aggrandizing person. I find it very unpleasing that you feel you are in the position to judge a nation the way you do. It's a two-way road, so don't try and make yourself seem so special.

I wanted to add some clarification to my point. Everyone has an opinion about everyone else, and that's all it is. You state strong opinions, that make you no better than what you are accusing us of being is all I am getting at.

[Tuberload]

Something I would like to add to the discussion about heroes. I know this isn't always the case, but if everyone who joined the military had at least someone who admired them and thought of them as there hero, then they are a hero right? Isn't it peopling that make other people heroes? So I don't see how anyone can sit here and decide, based off of definitions or whatever, who is a hero and who isn't. IMO all we can decide is who is OUR hero, and who isn't.

[Hazard]

Tuberload, you're an idiot. The object is to decide who would smother the grenade, not ways of escaping.

[Adron]

Is being a fireman just a job? Is being a policeman just a job? Is training to fly $40 million aircraft just a job? Is training to command a $1 submarine just a job?

Yes, those can be just a job. To some people they are a call, to some they are just a job. Is caring for children in a school just a job? Is working on the newest games just a job? Is collecting and recycling computers just a job? Is finding, buying and selling "the greatest fruit" just a job?

Actually, in situation #2 it is extremely probably that only the man on top of the grenade would be killed.

Actually, in situation #2, if everyone chooses to go hold the grenade, they all get killed. Or if everyone chooses to stay at the walls (assuming the blast/shrapnel is lethal at that range).

[Adron]

Arguing against everyone Tuberload, I like your style! Find the weak points in everyone's arguments, and expose them!

Adron:
I agree with what you are saying about if everyone was a hero than what would be so special about it. What I don't agree with is your tendency to say that the troops over there are not putting themselves in significant danger. I don't know of any technology so far that will keep a well-placed stray bullet from blowing someone's brains out, or an rpg from blowing a soldier to pieces.

That's a good point. I actually believe that the troops who are now acting as policemen, to maintain order, are exposing themselves to large risks. Still, the risks they are exposing themselves to are smaller than the risks that the opposing Iraqi freedom fighters are accepting. But yes, there's definitely a danger to being an american in Iraq now.

Is it enough for me to call them heroes? I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't think so. Relatively few of them actually do die. Heroes of WW2 could have a 50% or less chance of survival. I don't think soldiers going to Iraq plan to die. Or do they? (i.e. do they make sure they've written their wills, say goodbye to family and friends, etc?)

And then there's the "not everyone can be a hero", and the "personal choice" factor - it's more heroic to choose to take the risks for some higher purpose, than to join up in an army and then happen to get sent to somewhere dangerous. I suppose to me it's a bit of weighing the factors together.

You also talk about soldiers getting paid... Every movie I have ever seen with a hero in it, the hero got rewarded (paid) in one fashion or another, so I don't see the difference.

Yes, that happens to be common. I suppose it's there to show that being a hero pays. The heroes typically aren't in it for the money though, they just get that as a bonus. A real movie hero gives his reward to charity. I suppose what I mean here is that there's a scale where a hero would be at one end and a mercenary at the other. Very generalized, but maybe you get what I mean?

I am at a loss for words hear, but I do think there should be a separation from the soldiers who join, but don't do anything extraordinary, and the soldiers that rise up above the rest and perform there duties when no one else would. Perhaps we could use the words Hero, and Superhero, or something and hero. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. The point comes down to that I feel anyone who joins the military and goes into active duty combat (that includes anyone put in harms way be it marines or supply convoys) is a hero of some sort. Perhaps we should try and throw a few more definitions into the discussion.

I'd be more into the something and hero alternative. Think of warcraft iii, where heroes are the big guys who accomplish lots, while all the grunts act as cannon fodder.

I do think there should be a distinction to separate those who rise above the rest. Those are the heros!

It's probably different in Israel, where everyone is in the military. Makes it more natural to separate those who rise above the rest from those who don't.

[Adron]

Something I would like to add to the discussion about heroes. I know this isn't always the case, but if everyone who joined the military had at least someone who admired them and thought of them as there hero, then they are a hero right? Isn't it peopling that make other people heroes? So I don't see how anyone can sit here and decide, based off of definitions or whatever, who is a hero and who isn't. IMO all we can decide is who is OUR hero, and who isn't.

That's a good point too. Everyone is probably someone's hero. When you get children, you'll be their hero, no matter what you do.

Maybe it's a complete waste of time to try to discuss who's a hero and who's not. I was just trying to look for some kind of generalizable expression, that would cover what's common to heroes. But then, that's pretty much what you find just looking up "hero" in a dictionary as I did before.

[Arta]

I don't see your accusations of American's as any different than me saying the most of the world is a bunch of cowards not willing to stand up for freedom... Oh shit, things are getting crazy let's run away.

This is exactly the attitude that I am referring to. What makes you think that your idea of freedom is the only idea? What makes you think that 'freedom', as you put it, is the best thing in every situation everywhere in the world? What makes you think that America, or anyone else,  is qualified to make those decisions? I consider my country to be far 'freer' than the states. I can reverse engineer whatever I want. I can write and make available to others any application I choose. I can cross the street wherever I like. I can go out when I want to without the fear of being a victim of gun crime. I don't live under a system where the state can murder its citizens. I live in a country with more than 2 major political parties. I live in a country where you can't win an election just by having more money. I could go on...

I think there's 2 distinct types of patriotism. One is passive - an attachment to one's homeland, a pride in its accomplishments - I think I fall into this category. If the UK were attacked, I would probably take up arms to defend it. There's also another kind though, which I think is much more prevalent in the States - this 'militant' patriotism. We're the best. We know best. We're the biggest. We can do what we want. We know what's right for you. We'll do what's best for us no matter what. If you don't like this country then you're evil. The flags, the prose, the speeches, the pledge, the 'god bless america', the 'heroes'... why god bless america? Why not god bless the world? god bless the human race? god bless the persuit of worldwide peace and liberty and freedom by peaceful means? What about fighters in Iraq at the moment? I don't condone their actions but they're fighting for what they believe in against overwhelming odds with practically no chance of success - aren't they heroes too?

American culture seems to encourage this very black & white view of the world. I don't mean to offend you but your statement quoted above is just naiive and simplistic.


PS: I wasn't accusing america or anyone of anything. Nor do I think my previous post was particularly extreme.

[Tuberload]

Tuberload, you're an idiot. The object is to decide who would smother the grenade, not ways of escaping.

You're an idiot for not clearly specifying that so don't feel so special...

[Hazard]

Tuberload, I assume I am dealing with people intelligent enough to understand the situation. Do I need to specify every mundane detail for you? All of them are 6'0", 185 lbs., athletic, run a 8:37 second mile, sprint at the exact same speed, have brown hair, have hazel brown eyes...? Obviously Adron managed to understand the idea, why is it you had such trouble with it?

[Tuberload]

Tuberload, I assume I am dealing with people intelligent enough to understand the situation. Do I need to specify every mundane detail for you? All of them are 6'0", 185 lbs., athletic, run a 8:37 second mile, sprint at the exact same speed, have brown hair, have hazel brown eyes...? Obviously Adron managed to understand the idea, why is it you had such trouble with it?

And I am assuming I am dealing with intelligent people not ignorant ones. You left out a very big detail not a small one, so I thought I would lighten up the mood, and throw in the half serious comment I did. Oh, and I don't see how being an asshole makes you sound intelligent...

[Hitmen]

I remember the good ol' days were people could argue in a polite manner without hurling insults at each other...

Oh wait, no I don't, that never happened. Silly me.

[Tuberload]

This is exactly the attitude that I am referring to. What makes you think that your idea of freedom is the only idea? What makes you think that 'freedom', as you put it, is the best thing in every situation everywhere in the world? What makes you think that America, or anyone...Snipped for brevity...

You obviously missed the point I was trying to make, so instead of arguing with all of your opinions, I will restate mine so hopefully it is easier to understand and say a few things about yours.

Who are YOU to make such comments? The reason I made the one I did was to, in a sense, do the same thing you are doing right now. I don't necessarily feel that way, but you decided to throw out stereotypical views of Americans, so I threw out a stereotypical view of the rest of the world. You sound just as arrogant to me right now as American's do, and I really don't see how you can sit here and say the things you do and think that makes you better than us. We think we're right, and you obviously think you're right, so I am failing to see the difference here.

Last time I checked America was a country of many cultures that decided they wanted to move here because they saw something better for themselves. Sounds to me like you have an issue with people that are different than you. I am also failing to see why I should have to sing "God Bless The World", what have they done for me? I like the idea of being loyal to a team, not the whole community of teams.

Addition:

PS: I wasn't accusing america or anyone of anything. Nor do I think my previous post was particularly extreme.

Sorry I didn't read this before I posted. I don't think you were being extreme other, I said I was going to use extreme examples and that's why I made the stereotypical comment I did. I don't see how you weren't making accusations though. I am not trying to get into an argument over who I think is the better country. I think everyone is equal, I just have pride in the team I am a part of.

One More Addition:

I also just want to make sure you know that I think every soldier who is fighting over there is equal. I have as much respect for British, Itallian, Australian, etc, soldiers as I do Americans.

[Grok]

Is it enough for me to call them heroes? I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't think so. Relatively few of them actually do die. Heroes of WW2 could have a 50% or less chance of survival. I don't think soldiers going to Iraq plan to die. Or do they? (i.e. do they make sure they've written their wills, say goodbye to family and friends, etc?)

And then there's the "not everyone can be a hero", and the "personal choice" factor - it's more heroic to choose to take the risks for some higher purpose, than to join up in an army and then happen to get sent to somewhere dangerous. I suppose to me it's a bit of weighing the factors together.

I do think there should be a distinction to separate those who rise above the rest. Those are the heros!

Perhaps there's the distinction.  You made it without saying it -- rather than "a hero", it could be the personal choice as in "my type of hero".  Since heroes come in many forms and situations, not every hero is everyone's hero.  I'm pretty sure your Palestinian suicide bombers families consider them heroes, and the Israelis who are the victims do not consider the Palestinian anything close to heroic.

But most everyone would consider a fireman, risking his own life by rushing into a burning building that is showing signs of collapse, to rescue the last remaining person inside, a hero.  Most everyone would consider a policeman stepping in the line of fire of a madman with guns aimed at other civilians, to try to bring a peaceful solution, a hero.

Military heroes probably have a high chance of being one-sided heroes.  We say "yay, our hero!" and the enemy sneers and says "what a fuckin he-ro"...

[Arta]

...and say the things you do and think that makes you better than us. We think we're right, and you obviously think you're right, so I am failing to see the difference here.

I hate to keep banging the same drum, but this is yet another example of what I'm talking about. I don't think that my country is better than yours or any other. I don't think that any country is 'better' than any other. Nor do I think that I am 'right', in the universal sense of the word. I think I'm right for me.

I get the overwhelming impression that the consensus among americans as that the american ideal, the american way of life, is right for everyone. You're right that I'm dealing in sterotypes here. I don't for a second think that all americans think this way. What I'm talking about is the impression I get from americans as a collective.

I don't quite see how you can sensibly infer a dislike of plural societies from anything I've said thus far.

[Tuberload]

I hate to keep banging the same drum, but this is yet another example of what I'm talking about.

Go ahead and keep banging your drum.

I don't think that my country is better than yours or any other. I don't think that any country is 'better' than any other. Nor do I think that I am 'right', in the universal sense of the word. I think I'm right for me.

You never said that is what you think is right for you; you just voiced all of your opinions about Americans. Since I haven't been trying to argue that America is better than everyone else, and you missed the point of my argument completely, I will not continue the previous argument.

I get the overwhelming impression that the consensus among americans as that the american ideal, the american way of life, is right for everyone. You're right that I'm dealing in sterotypes here. I don't for a second think that all americans think this way. What I'm talking about is the impression I get from americans as a collective.

That makes perfect sense. Thank you for stating your true feelings, after you got your bashing in.

I don't quite see how you can sensibly infer a dislike of plural societies from anything I've said thus far.

I found it very easy to formulate the opinion I did. I don't see why you always resort to attacking my intelligence every time we participate in a discussion of this nature. I am either naive, simplistic, insensible, unable to comprehend, I have confused hands, in denial, and the list goes on. Yet you on the other hand are always right? I don't think you are any better than the way you view Americans. It must be because I am American that I can't have an opinion that differs from yours and still be intelligent.