Pat Tillman, yet again

[warz]

Fireman and policeman work in groups as well don't they? Soldiers do do something very special, they make the commitment that if neccessary they'll put their lives on the line to defend YOU. That isn't special to you?

I agree with Arta. Special people are heroes. All firemen and all policemen aren't heroes either. They're just more likely to be. American soldiers aren't likely at all to be heroes, because they don't need to be. They table is tilted in their favor. Palestinian freedom fighters are more likely to be heroes, they fight for something they believe in, and willingly sacrifice their lives.

If you put your life on the line for the heroic reasons, you are a hero. Heroic reasons don't include "if I do that, I'll get money/education/advantages/a kick, and most likely I won't ever get into a fight, or I'll be able to push a button that kills dozens of civilians while not putting myself at any more significant risk than the risk I take in my life driving to and from work every day."

Not completely insignificant, but significantly smaller than it would be if you were to join a small, badly equipped group. So you're not as likely to become a hero.

Sounds to me like Adron has a movie-style definition of hero in his mind. Every comment I read of Adron's makes me think less and less of his opinions, lol. It's great.

[Hazard]

I'm joining the army in a few months, and I'll do my best to avoid being a hero.

Do so. Heroics isn't the way to go if you want to come out alive and well.

Ah, so it is better to be a coward and come out alive than to display courage and risk it?

If you value your life, yes. It's all about priorities. Do you want to be a hero, or do you want to be alive and well? They don't exclude each other, but i think there is a somewhat negative covariance on those factors.

Actually its a question of whether you are a self-serving bastard, if you're more concerned with the wellfare of innocent others.

[Adron]

Sounds to me like Adron has a movie-style definition of hero in his mind. Every comment I read of Adron's makes me think less and less of his opinions, lol. It's great.

That saddens me.

It sounds to me like Hazard has a political populistic "everyone is a hero" style hero definition in his mind. That devalues the "hero" concept. If everyone is a hero, what's special about being a hero?

[Hazard]

Whoever said everyone is a hero? Any man or woman who makes MY freedom their personal responsibility is MY hero. Maybe you can't understand that, probably because you don't understand the American concept of freedom and honor. Don't talk to me how you understand, because you obviously have no idea. You may think you do, but you don't.

[Adron]

Actually its a question of whether you are a self-serving bastard, if you're more concerned with the wellfare of innocent others.

"A self-serving bastard" sounds a bit too much like an insult to me. If you're more concerned about the lives of others than about your own life, you may have hero potential. If you care more about your own life than someone else's, I'd say you're normal. Average. Nothing unusual. A survivor.

[Archonist]

I feel people that put there lives on the line are heroes. It doesn't matter if there a firefighter, cop, millitary, or even just a businessman putting everything on the line for his company and his workers, as someone stated. You may say thats not putting your life on the line, but think about it. If you put everything up for something, and it goes down... You lose everything, and thats pretty much your life.

[Adron]

Whoever said everyone is a hero? Any man or woman who makes MY freedom their personal responsibility is MY hero. Maybe you can't understand that, probably because you don't understand the American concept of freedom and honor. Don't talk to me how you understand, because you obviously have no idea. You may think you do, but you don't.

There have been comments here indicating that anyone joining the armed forces is a hero. With that in mind, every Israeli, and until recently, every male Swede is a hero, because of the mandatory service in the armed forces.

"Don't talk to me how you understand" seems to be missing something. "About" how I understand perhaps? I can understand that someone making your freedom their personal responsibility, where that responsibility is a burden to them, could make them a hero in your eyes. I don't see how that applies to most of your armed forces though. It's a job like many others. The soldiers in Iraq didn't have to go there to defend your freedom. Iraq wouldn't be able to conquer and subdue the US anyway.

Perhaps I have no idea about what you think is a hero. Perhaps your hero concept is so strange, unnatural and alien that it is ununderstandable? Or perhaps I don't see how some people labeled heroes in this discussion fit your definition of "Any man or woman who makes MY freedom their personal responsibility is MY hero"?

[Adron]

I feel people that put there lives on the line are heroes. It doesn't matter if there a firefighter, cop, millitary, or even just a businessman putting everything on the line for his company and his workers, as someone stated. You may say thats not putting your life on the line, but think about it. If you put everything up for something, and it goes down... You lose everything, and thats pretty much your life.

I agree with you to some extent. There has to be enough risk to what they do though. In my (and the dictionary's) opinion, enough risk to make it take a certain amount of courage to do what they do. Otherwise everyone is a hero, making the word carry no meaning - there's a risk of dying no matter what you do, including walking across the street, collecting taxes, etc. Actually, collecting debts / taxes can probably involve a rather large risk to your life. Or being a prison guard. Or a bank clerk. I don't want to label all those people "heroes".

[Hazard]

Its not only my freedom they have the courage to defend either Adron. How about all of the hundreds of thousands of liberated Iraqis who will now have a chance to turly live since their oppressive leader has been toppled? My comments have nothing to do with the Swedish army (A Swedish army? Wtf?) or the Israeli army, or any army that you are in because of a required service. When somebody volunteers to lay it all on the line for me, that means something. It seems to me that you value your own life more than the lives of others, but thats just an observed opinion.

[Adron]

Its not only my freedom they have the courage to defend either Adron. How about all of the hundreds of thousands of liberated Iraqis who will now have a chance to turly live since their oppressive leader has been toppled?

But then you are changing your definition? I'd like you to pick a definition and stick to it. I pasted a dictionary definition I found, which agrees fairly well with my hero definition. Unless you can show an example that makes me think it's illogical or incorrect, that'll be my definition of hero.

And yes, the soldiers who go to Iraq to help build things, knowing that there will be a large risk to their lives, and don't hesitate to risk their lives when it can save others are heroes. The ones who joined the armed forces for the  money, assuming they'd never come into a dangerous situation, or just staying behind a desk or in a safe spot, are not.

[Arta]

Yes, I'm British.

Adron: I think this is just an aspect of American culture which is disparate with Europe.

I have nothing against america or americans - I have many american friends and they're all great people - but this self-aggrandisement is a part of american culture that I do find quite unpleasent. It's an underhand way of saying that americans are better than everyone else, although I don't doubt that that's not how they see it. That is how it comes across to much of the world, though.

[Adron]

When somebody volunteers to lay it all on the line for me, that means something. It seems to me that you value your own life more than the lives of others, but thats just an observed opinion.

If all those people volunteered to risk their lives with no advantage to themselves, I'd be more inclined to call them heroes. I don't think all of them work like that though. There are other reasons to join the forces, one of them being college funding. Then you just do what you have to do to get your money, a job like any.

And ... well, I think I value my life more than the lives of most others. There are people I'd risk my life for, but going to a far-away country to fight a war for unclear reasons isn't my kind of thing. There's no way to tell for sure how one would act in such a situation ahead of time though. If the situation ever arose, I suppose I'd find out. Sometimes I take a lot of chances, other times I carefully weigh my options and go the safest route.

[Hazard]

Adron, you somehow felt my reasoning for calling them heroes was insufficent, so I added the point that its not just me or my neighbors or their friends they are fighting for, its the innocent as well.

From what you have said, going halfway around the world to help oppressed women, children, and old people that you don't know isn't worth it since it doesn't concern you. Your total lack of courage and honor is something that I find appalling. Your total lack of overall values and morals is also something that I do not seem to understand. Basically you are only looking out for number one, and you owe nothing to your fellow man, even though you have a priviliged position in which you could help others.

Your idea of the military is on the proposterous side. The United States military is surely "not just a job" yet your position of ignorance excuses your misguidings.

Lets try a classic example so I can try and get a feel for what you believe in. Lets say you are in a circular room 20 feet in diameter. There are 6 people in that room, one elderly woman and one elderly man, yourself, a small child and her young mother, and, say a man almost exactly like yourself, and you are all spaced equally from each other against the walls of the room. I place a grenade exactly in the center of the room, 10 feet from each of you. Would you jump on the grenade yourself, and die while saving the lives of all the others? Lets assume that you and five others exactly like yourself were in the situation. Would you dive on the grenade then? Or do you just leave that job to somebody else, since your life is more valuable than the lives of others?

[Adron]

Adron, you somehow felt my reasoning for calling them heroes was insufficent, so I added the point that its not just me or my neighbors or their friends they are fighting for, its the innocent as well.

I didn't feel that your reasoning for calling them heroes was insufficient, I just noted that it was inconsistent with your hero definition.

From what you have said, going halfway around the world to help oppressed women, children, and old people that you don't know isn't worth it since it doesn't concern you.

That could be worth it. Going to Iraq to torture and humiliate Iraqi prisoners wouldn't be worth it though. Just pointing out that the issue isn't black or white.

Your total lack of courage and honor is something that I find appalling. Your total lack of overall values and morals is also something that I do not seem to understand. Basically you are only looking out for number one, and you owe nothing to your fellow man, even though you have a priviliged position in which you could help others.

I don't share all of your values. I think Arta is right, you're colored by American "I am the best, and here I come to save the world" thinking. I might help people, or do things that you'd agree with morally. I don't think this discussion has covered what I'd do in a situation much at all, so you're unable to reach any definite conclusions about that. What I've pointed out is that you produce definitions that don't make sense to me. Either they aren't clear enough, or they don't properly take into account the relevant factors. Or you believe that going to Iraq to torture and humiliate prisoners is hero work.

Your idea of the military is on the proposterous side. The United States military is surely "not just a job" yet your position of ignorance excuses your misguidings.

It's not? What makes you say that? What makes it not be just a job? Do they not get paid? Do they not work?

Lets try a classic example so I can try and get a feel for what you believe in. Lets say you are in a circular room 20 feet in diameter. There are 6 people in that room, one elderly woman and one elderly man, yourself, a small child and her young mother, and, say a man almost exactly like yourself, and you are all spaced equally from each other against the walls of the room. I place a grenade exactly in the center of the room, 10 feet from each of you. Would you jump on the grenade yourself, and die while saving the lives of all the others? Lets assume that you and five others exactly like yourself were in the situation. Would you dive on the grenade then? Or do you just leave that job to somebody else, since your life is more valuable than the lives of others?

That's a good question. I'm going to get back to it, have to run right now. In case #1, I'd be more likely to jump it than in case #2. I'd just like to point out that in case #2, if everyone is exactly the same, and the choices are to run to the middle or to stay at your spot, everyone will die unconditionally. Either because everyone runs to the middle, or because everyone stays where they are.

[Hazard]

Is being a fireman just a job? Is being a policeman just a job? Is training to fly $40 million aircraft just a job? Is training to command a $1 submarine just a job?

Actually, in situation #2 it is extremely probably that only the man on top of the grenade would be killed.