Pat Tillman, yet again

[Hazard]

Adron, would they have been in that situation had they not volunteered to put themselves in harms way? No. Your argument is invalid. Nobody has to be there, its a choice they made by enlisting in the armed forces. Just because money is holy in the eyes of Americans doesn't make him a hero for giving it up. He is no more and no less a hero than every other serviceman and servicewoman who has sacrificied their lives in Iraq.

Warz, I do my best to point out the ignorance of those who praise Tillman yet cannot name 3 other soldiers who have died in Iraq. You also should have used "your" instead of "you're" when speaking of my argument. "You're" means you are. "You are argument is invalid," doesn't make sense.

[warz]

The desperate typo attack. Touche.

[K]

Do something about it, then. Go give every other soldier their press coverage. You're points in this argument are stupid.

Unfortunantly none of us here that I know of control multi-million dollar international news syndicates.  but thanks.


Besides, wouldn't you rather die than play for the Arizona Cardinals?  

[Raven]

Are you saying it's ok for the government to lie to the people to keep morale up? Paging Joseph Goebel, paging Joseph Goebel...

If you're referring to Joseph Goebbels, then perhaps you should reconsider comparing the American media to the Nazi propaganda machine. You'll notice many stark differences. In general, some people seem to be obsessed with comparing politics they don't agree with to Nazi idealogies. Perhaps they need to do some more thinking before they make such statements.

[K]

And people seem to have an obsession with overreacting, too.  Perhaps you should consider the point I'm making.  I wasn't comparing the american media to anything nazi.  I was commenting on the extreme differences in the first and second version of Mr. Tillman's death. (The second of which, not suprisingly, came out 1. on a weekend and 2. memorial day weekend, when very few major networks are going to pick it up.)

If Tuberload thinks it's ok to lie to the people to keep morale up, how is that anything but propoganda?  How does that not justify lying to the people for any other reason deemed "morally right?"  

[warz]

Unfortunantly none of us here that I know of control multi-million dollar international news syndicates.  but thanks.

My point. You're welcome.

[Raven]

And people seem to have an obsession with overreacting, too.  Perhaps you should consider the point I'm making.  I wasn't comparing the american media to anything nazi.  I was commenting on the extreme differences in the first and second version of Mr. Tillman's death. (The second of which, not suprisingly, came out 1. on a weekend and 2. memorial day weekend, when very few major networks are going to pick it up.)

I didn't overreact. You said "Paging Joseph Goebel". Joseph Goebbels was the Nazi Minister of Propaganda. Therefore, yes, if you were referring to his tactics, you were comparing the American media to Nazi propaganda. There were differences in the two accounts of what led to Mr. Tillman falling in battle. The first one was delivered based on military accounts at the time. When new information became available, it was also presented to the American people. I think you're overanalyzing the intricacies of how and when this news was made available.

[Hazard]

Unfortunantly none of us here that I know of control multi-million dollar international news syndicates.  but thanks.

I have  brought the atrocity of all his media coverage to the attention of several newscasters and columnists in the Tampa Bay area and am currently coordinating with a writer from our local paper to bring this to the public. Also, I have hooked up with my friends at ProtestWarrior to organize a much more wide-scale operation to bring this to the masses.

[Tuberload]

No it doesn't. It shouldn't fucking matter what he gave up. Every man and woman over there who fights and dies is a hero. People have given up a whole lot more than money to be over there fighting and dying. Why is his millions of dollars in sacrifices worth more than John Q. Mechanic who works at Sears tire center?

How about the man who has died, getting NO media coverage mind you, who will never see his wife and newborn child again any less newsworthy than a man who gave up money?

Pat Tillman is an American hero. So are the nearly one thousand others who have died whose names have never seen newsprint or been aired on a news broadcast. Should he be glorified any more than any other soldier? Fuck no. Should he be reveared for giving up all this money (which is sooooooooo important)? Fuck no. Should he, however, be honored equally with all the other men and women who have sacrficied everything to defend freedom? Fuck yes. He is equal. No more, no less.

I never said the others who lost their lives were not equally important, but maybe you missed my point of why they make a big deal about it. Let's be realistic, not every soldier that dies in combat can be covered by the news in such a fashion. Besides I doubt if they could, that American citizens, beyond that of the soldier's circle of influence, would even care. Most American's don't live in reality, so they need fantasy to keep their hopes up.

If Tuberload thinks it's ok to lie to the people to keep morale up, how is that anything but propoganda?  How does that not justify lying to the people for any other reason deemed "morally right?"  

Hey I stated a fact, and you're making accusations. Don't mistake my willingness to speak the truth, for my real feelings, but please do point me to where I said I think it is ok... I am a realist so I don't try and hide behind all the "oh things should be this way" crap. I live with it and move on.

[Hazard]

My point is Pat Tillman does not even come close to deserving more attention than anybody else. Cover everyone equally is all I ask.

[Adron]

Adron, would they have been in that situation had they not volunteered to put themselves in harms way? No. Your argument is invalid. Nobody has to be there, its a choice they made by enlisting in the armed forces.

It's a choice, but choosing to enlist in the armed forces doesn't make you a hero. That's my point. You may enlist in the armed forces like any other work, because you're interested in guns, because you want to finance your education, because your friends did, .....

Your actions in the armed forces may be heroic or not, but the simple act of enlisting doesn't make you a hero.

[Hazard]

Adron, would they have been in that situation had they not volunteered to put themselves in harms way? No. Your argument is invalid. Nobody has to be there, its a choice they made by enlisting in the armed forces.

It's a choice, but choosing to enlist in the armed forces doesn't make you a hero. That's my point. You may enlist in the armed forces like any other work, because you're interested in guns, because you want to finance your education, because your friends did, .....

But don't you stil take on the burden of defending your country? What your duty is or your reasons for joining up has little to do with it, because you are making the protection of your nation your personal responsibility. Anyone taking on that responsibility is a hero.

[Adron]

But don't you stil take on the burden of defending your country? What your duty is or your reasons for joining up has little to do with it, because you are making the protection of your nation your personal responsibility. Anyone taking on that responsibility is a hero.

If that's your definition of hero, then they are heros to you.

To me, you have to do or be something special to be a hero. People who join your armed forces don't make the protection of their nation their personal responsibility much more than everyone else's. They have lots of other people helping them, being one in a group. They depend upon other people to support them with equipment.

A policeman or fireman is more likely to be a hero to me.

[Hazard]

Fireman and policeman work in groups as well don't they? Soldiers do do something very special, they make the commitment that if neccessary they'll put their lives on the line to defend YOU. That isn't special to you?

[Arta]

I don't buy this hero stuff at all. I mean, some soldiers are heroes, definitely. So are some policemen, firemen, and so forth... but you don't just 'become' a hero by joining the army. Any idiot can do that. Being a hero is something more special.