Cinco de Mayo

[CrAz3D]

Where did I say that?  Stop putting words in my mouth.  You know damn well what I'm talking about, stop being an ass about this.  American citizens have more rights and privledges than anyone who is here that isn't a citizen, as it should be.

Healthcare isn't a universal right nor is education.  It is nice help people with it, but it isn't their right to take your money.  It is very humanitarian to help people, but it isn't an obligation.

I didn't say that you said "Mexicans are leeches", I said you're a bleeding heart liberal...there comes the leech supporting.
If you are not a bleeding heart then why support people who obviously don't want to support themselves or do anything legally?

[Rule]

Healthcare isn't a universal right nor is education.  It is nice help people with it, but it isn't their right to take your money.  It is very humanitarian to help people, but it isn't an obligation.

Huh?  I'm pretty sure to receive proper healthcare you need to buy insurance. Deciding not to buy health insurance is something both Americans and illegal immigrants do.  Also, I think that as long as it is feasible, you are entitled to an education as much as anyone else -- regardless of whether someone is smarter or whether his parents have more money than yours do. You seem to disagree?

I didn't say that you said "Mexicans are leeches", I said you're a bleeding heart liberal...there comes the leech supporting.

Sorry, those are just platitudes you've been brainwashed with, hence my Orwell reference. 

If you are not a bleeding heart then why support people who obviously don't want to support themselves or do anything legally?

I think that, like anyone else, a majority of these "illegals" are looking out for their baser needs -- food, shelter, and protection; essentially they are trying to survive.  I think if I were in their place I would want help, and since usually people are willing to work damn hard to survive, they will be an asset to your country and should be helped.  As Myndfyre has pointed out there are obvious problems with housing people illegally.  This is why I think it should be made easier for Mexicans to enter the US legally. 

I am not for supporting people who "obviously don't want to support themselves." 
Remember that movie that Userloser posted, where some asshole picked up a whole bunch of illegal mexicans and treated them like animals for his amusement?  Remember how a lot of you thought that was funny?  Remember how they were willing to do shit work for him if they were given $20 for the whole day?   That seems to suggest that they are prepared to work damn hard and that entering the country legally is not an option within their grasp.  Put yourself in their shoes for once.
You didn't do anything particularly special to become an American -- this is the point I made in my initial response which was so poorly taken.

I think xenophobia accurately describes the attitude towards a lot of legal and illegal Mexican workers in the US.  I hear things like "they take away all our hard labour jobs, they take away income that should rightfully belong to Americans, etc." The problem isn't that the foreign workers are freeloading, it is that others are lazy and resent the competition.  Exactly the same thing happened when the Japanese and Chinese immigrants came to Canada to work on the railroad: basically every white man hated them and they were the hardest workers we had.

[CrAz3D]

This is all regarding illegal immigration.
Illegal immigrants dont pay into the tax system for schools & healthcare.

I agree that they work hard, they work harder than most Americans.  But they need to be here legally for logistical reasons. 

Yes, it might be difficult for them to get here legally...but what about the people coming here legally?  Is it fair for them for us to allow illegals to just charge the border? 
Wouldn't it be possible for us to allow more legal immigration if there was little to no illegal immigration?  We'd have more money and more jobs.

I can understand how they feel, they need to feed their family and such, but they need to do it legally.

I agree about them not taking away jobs from Americans, I know for damn sure I don't want to pick strawberries & similar field work.  I have no problem with them doing it, it just needs to be legal.


If they can stroll over the border so easily what is there to say that terrorists can't and haven't already come over the border?
I recall reading something about a few Iranians that were caught in AZ. & So. CA., that is scary.

[Rule]

Illegal immigrants dont pay into the tax system for schools & healthcare.

I agree that they work hard, they work harder than most Americans

That is a problem that can be fixed by making it a lot more feasible for them to enter the country legally.  Since they work so hard, indeed "harder than most Americans,"
paying taxes should not be a problem for them if they are allowed to live without being criminals.

Yes, it might be difficult for them to get here legally...but what about the people coming here legally?  Is it fair for them for us to allow illegals to just charge the border? 

No, it isn't fair.  That is why intelligent measures should be taken to prevent people from entering the country illegally.  While increasing border security is an important component of this objective, one of the "intelligent measures" includes making it more possible for Mexicans to enter legally.  If they are willing to be treated like crap and work for $20/day, chances are they are willing to do what it takes to continue surviving and supporting their families -- and that includes trying to enter the country legally.  It should be made clear that attempting to enter the country illegally is not a choice they want to make.

Wouldn't it be possible for us to allow more legal immigration if there was little to no illegal immigration?  We'd have more money and more jobs.

That's circular logic.  Make it more possible to enter legally and there will be less illegal immigration.

I can understand how they feel, they need to feed their family and such, but they need to do it legally.

Sometimes it's a choice between feeding their families or entering illegally.  Which would you choose?  How should we change that?

If they can stroll over the border so easily what is there to say that terrorists can't and haven't already come over the border?
I recall reading something about a few Iranians that were caught in AZ. & So. CA., that is scary.

Yes, border security should be improved.

[CrAz3D]

K, we're on the same page, finally.

Good stuff.



A good guest worker program would be awesome.  Charge taxes, require insurance/drivers license, etc.  No women (or at least make it so that if they give birth here their child doesnt automatically gain citizenship status)

[Rule]

K, we're on the same page, finally.

We're not on the same page when you refer to illegal immigrants as "FUCKING illegals," and we're not on the same page when you refer to them as "STUPID CRIMINALS."  Given the decisions many of them have to make, I would often support their choice to enter the country illegally:  it is a choice that you would make yourself and is often the lesser of two evils.  Those who support laws that give these people little choice but to become criminals are worse than those who break them.  Your anger is misplaced, partly from political influence, and partly from that natural fear we all have for that which is foreign, that which is unexpected, for that which may threaten the way we are used to living our lives.

A good guest worker program would be awesome.  Charge taxes, require insurance/drivers license, etc.  No women (or at least make it so that if they give birth here their child doesnt automatically gain citizenship status)

No women? lol.  You're sounding like the Taliban now.  Are they not allowed to have relationships with American women either?  If you're going to make a law that the children of guest workers who are born in the US should not be US citizens, that law should be applied consistently to any visitor.

[CrAz3D]

I said it like that just to put emphasis on it.

Those who support laws that give these people little choice but to become criminals are worse than those who break them.

I'm in the wrong because people are breaking into my country?  They are treading upon my sovereignty for their own cause which isn't the betterment of America.

Scenario:
Homeless family breaks into your personal house, takes your food, takes your medicine, takes your children's books & toys, do you still say "well, that's ok cause they need it."

[dxoigmn]

I believe the proof is that there are 12+million people here!
You give them the benefit of the doubt that they "feel bad" so they pay taxes?  Americans don't even pay all of their taxes. 

I'm not saying there are no illegal immigrants here. I am saying that he is saying some statements with no proof (e.g. illegal immigrants pay no taxes).

Some of there sites are bias, obviously, but you can still see that the numbers are huge in terms of dollars.

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states nearly $12 billion annually, and when the children born here to illegal aliens are added, the costs more than double to $28.6 billion.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchf6ad

In the state of Oregon, illegal immigrants account for a staggering $165 million in unpaid medical bills.

http://www.katu.com/team2/story.asp?ID=85466

The issue resonates in Los Angeles County, where officials estimated in 2003 that caring for illegal immigrants who seek emergency and follow-up care costs the county $340 million annually. That has caused consternation among public officials and opponents of illegal immigration.

----This is is $340MILLION in ONE county!
http://southernborder.berkeley.edu/list_articles/REQ_Oct14_ImmigrantsNoBurdentoERs.html

Perhaps the most telling quote from one of your sources:

So are illegal immigrants giving more than they take?

"Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has a good answer to that question," says Economist Anthony Rufolo. He says there are simply too many variables, but the argument that illegal immigrants take away jobs that legal citizens would do, he says, is not realistic.

One of the title of your articles is: Mexican Immigrants Not Burdening ERs, Study Says. So I don't know what you're trying to prove.

Edit: I don't support illegal immigrantion. But I do think people need to be more reasonable about it, and the solution simply isn't to all of a sudden slap a felony on them. Nor is the solution to provide citizenship. But there needs to be some way to allow them to stay, work and continue to fuel the economy and if that means replacing "illegal" with "legal" because some people prefer that nomenclature, then so be it. But in truth, things will still be the same before except now one wouldn't be calling them illegal immigrants.

[CrAz3D]

http://southernborder.berkeley.edu/list_articles/REQ_Oct14_ImmigrantsNoBurdentoERs.html

The title may say illegals aren't burdening the economy, but the best I saw in there that actually said either way was "we don't know".
If they use any of our services they are being burdensome.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Crazed man, I am on your side but damn, you make us look bad.
I'd say the only aspect of my opinion that resembles xenophobia is knowledge of English, as it will speed assimilation into American culture. Right now, they don't assimilate, because of the language barrier and how it can be sustained because of a large Spanish-speaking environment as it is.

[CrAz3D]

I dont know how anyone could reason that illegals arent burdensome on the economy.
I dont know how anyone could support the "invasion" of people who disregard many laws.
I dont know how anyone can not see that terrorists/drug smugglers/etc can come in just as easy.

I've argued this with some friends so much my head actually does hurt (that's probably because I'm super tired). 

People just keep coming up with farfetched reasons to not agree that illegal immigration should be stopped, its nuts, I dont get it...how can people not see the huge threat that their method of entry poses & how obnoxious it is to support 12+million people whom contribute little in taxes.  They do support the economy, but not in taxes...a big sales tax would be cool to solve this

[Rule]

I said it like that just to put emphasis on it.

Those who support laws that give these people little choice but to become criminals are worse than those who break them.

I'm in the wrong because people are breaking into my country?  They are treading upon my sovereignty for their own cause which isn't the betterment of America.

If someone is so desperate that he is willing to work for $20 a day to feed his family, and in spite of this he is being kept out of the US legally, then I congratulate him for breaking a stupid law in order to continue his survival.  It is a choice you would make, it is a choice I would make, and you are hypocritical to look at them in such a shameful light for doing it. 

I do think that illegal immigration needs to be stopped.  I also think that making it easier for hard working honest people to legally move to the US is one step towards preventing illegal immigration.

I think your anger is misplaced.  If you are angry that these people are not paying taxes, then you should be angry at the laws in place that have given them  so few options, not at the people who are not so much different than yourself.  I think your tone in the original post that started this thread where you call Mexicans deadbeats is just an unhealthy way of venting your anger towards the immigration problem.  Being racist won't help your problems, it will only aggravate them.

Scenario:
Homeless family breaks into your personal house, takes your food, takes your medicine, takes your children's books & toys, do you still say "well, that's ok cause they need it."

Heh.  That's not really quite an analogous situation. However, in the very bizarre circumstance that a family needed to seriously rob me and give nothing back in order to survive, and I was reasonably well off, then I would not hate them or try to make their lives miserable over it.  Motivation does matter in my opinion.

I do not think I have more of an inherent right to be happy than they do.

Also, I don't know what you consider "the betterment of America," but demonizing a great number of its inhabitants doesn't sound like a good thing for America to me.

[CrAz3D]

What about cities like ones near me...we aren't exactly well off.  We have ALOT of dirt poor cities around here, some cities that are colonias built by illegal immigrants & super poor legal immigrants.  Is it fair to burden those types of cities with more people when they can't really sustain the population they currently have?

[Rule]

What about cities like ones near me...we aren't exactly well off.  We have ALOT of dirt poor cities around here, some cities that are colonias built by illegal immigrants & super poor legal immigrants.  Is it fair to burden those types of cities with more people when they can't really sustain the population they currently have?

I grant that this is a reasonable consideration, but I would hardly argue that hard working honest people are going to burden those cities -- they will contribute to them.  I mentioned that your imaginary situation wasn't too analogous to illegal immigration because in your situation nothing is returned.  These people are willing to work for what they get.  In fact, they are begging to work for what they get.  In many ways it is a fair trade.  I cannot agree more that maintaining the status quo is a bad idea: we cannot just shrug our shoulders and decide that it's ok to welcome people in illegally.  We also have to understand that these people are often making rational decisions and so they should not be demonized: we need to do something about the laws that make it hard for them not to be criminals.

[CrAz3D]

I agree, my scenario doesnt have them helping out.


But regarding our small cities, we have public education and healthcare that get used by many citizens & non-citizens.  Our county has one large city (mine) which is doing ok (we're about to be doing ALOT better in the next 10 year, yay for the state moving offices down here + that spaceport)...but cities nearby with hospitals & schools are doing MUCH worse than we are finanacially