The abortion-capital punishment debate

[MyndFyre]

How to be a good Democrat

7. You have to be against capital punishment but support abortion on demand.

How to be a good Republican
7. You have to be against abortion but support capital punishment.

While I happen to be on the side of the argument titled "How to be a good Republican," I'd like to discuss it!

When you are having an abortion, a person, an individual, a living being who hasn't yet had a chance to make any mark on the world is being put to death.  That person has done nothing, save be conceived, for which he or she is going to be put to death.  How can this be a consequence?  We are told that actions come with consequences; consequences aren't made themselves.

When it comes to capital punishment, we are putting to death an individual that at least one group of twelve people, although death-penalty sentences are usually appealed all the way up the jurisdiction chain, believe beyond all reasonable doubt that this person has committed an act so vile that he deserves death.  Some might ask, who are those twelve people to decide whether he or she should be put to death?  The death penalty is often not imposed by the jury, though; it is imposed by statute, a statute which was made by elected officials.  The society, then, is what determines what is acceptable and what is not, what is illegal and what is not, and what the consequences should be should you behave unacceptably.  The person being sentenced, being a part of that society, is cognizant of the action he or she took and that it violates that society's standards.  He or she knowingly violated them, and therefore consciously and implicitly accepted the due penalty for them.

I cannot say that abortion should be illegal in cases of rape, simply because it was not the girl's choice to have sex.  But it is known that when you have sex, no matter what you do to provide contraception, there's even a minute chance that you will become pregnant.  Why should someone who has done no action be punished for the action of someone else?

[CrAz3D]

I second above post.

Kill a prospective humanitiarian & let live Hitler?

[MyndFyre]

I second above post.

Kill a prospective humanitiarian & let live Hitler?

It's not even that.  We can't base it on what-ifs, because it could possibly be Hitler too.    The unborn child, though, hasn't done anything to deserve death.  Hitler, based on society's standards, did.

[CrAz3D]

I second above post.

Kill a prospective humanitiarian & let live Hitler?

It's not even that.  We can't base it on what-ifs, because it could possibly be Hitler too.    The unborn child, though, hasn't done anything to deserve death.  Hitler, based on society's standards, did.

yeah, I guess based on merit alone even it makes sense to keep the kid & execute the murderer

[TehUser]

It's not even that.  We can't base it on what-ifs, because it could possibly be Hitler too. 

Let's look solely at statistics.  There are some 6 billion people in the world.  About 8.75 million of them in prison.  I'd estimate maybe 100,000 people (and even that may be generous) are truly good people whose existences actually serve to better humanity.  Everyone else just lives out their lives in mediocrity.  So, based on this, it's 80 times more likely that someone will grow up to be in prison (and be a bad person by societal standards) than a good person.  Let's look at the percentages:

0.00166% of the population is "good".
0.14583% of the population is "bad".
99.85251% of the population is useless.

Thus, speaking purely in terms of statistics and reason, all children should be aborted because of the chances that they'll be anything but good.

[WoOdTroll]

Seems like jibberish to me. You don't know who is good, and who is bad, moreover who is useless. Everyone trys to make their own way in the world, some leave prints, some leave nothing. And some just arent lucky. For example Tsunami victims?

And everyone should be given a chance, wether they turn bad or good. Its just now a days people have such twisted views on life, they can't all tell whats good or bad. Some thing bad is good you know what I am getting at?

"no one sees a good thing when they see one"

[Ishbar]

The fact that picking sides is totally unnecessary, democrats and Republicans are children playing the name game 24/7. They just try to show up one another; "he picks black, she picks white, you say on, I say off." Abortion isn't something people should get scrupulous about. While yes, it is a moral dilemma; it isn't anyone but the one's involved business. It's a person's choice, we live in America and what we are treated with is choice, and abortion will remain choice. These people that are religiously involved over the subject get blind sighted with faith, on the other hand, those who are for it get headstrong and arrogant. You see on television, and movies, and in the paper on how people riot over the subject. People always have to be so narrow-minded; it's been going on for centuries. Pitchforks and Torches, now its picket signs and gossip. One woman wants to abort a child because she never intended on having one, it wouldn't be fair to give birth to him/her since she couldn't support the both of them and they'd be struggling all their lives. Yet unfortunately, people have to stuff their noses into others business, and then what only involved a woman and her doctor; now involves half a thousand people, cursing, and shouting. Abortion is nothing like capital punishment.

Now for the subject of Capital Punishment, our Justice system is greatly flawed, and its integrity is only as good on the inside as the people working on the outside. Not very promising if you ask me. Criminals get away because they have the money for bail and lawyers. Rapists, drug lords, and serial killers: All guilty. They spend 5 years in prison, and get out 2 years early on "good behavior" Then a man, or even a boy. In the wrong place, at the wrong time, finds himself in the middle of a horrible misconception, then winds up on death row. This happens much more than one may think, and that's neither fair to the family, nor to the public. We're all unsafe out here, and it's possible for it to happen to any one of us. Capital Punishment is neither right, nor wrong. It's impossible to justify ones self on the subject, you'll always end up contradicting yourself. Just as Abortion, it's unfair to the child in some opinions, it's murder in others, but its also murder for the mother, a little piece of her dies. While death isn't right, we return to the re-occurring factor; that it's still a choice.

[CrAz3D]

How can life be a choice?

Also, I accept that people put on death row a while ago could be innocent, not all, not even most, but some.  However, today, I believe that 99.99% of people put on death row are guilty.  There is so much evidence against these people now it is literally beyond a reasonable doubt that this person committed said act.

[Ishbar]

Life is choice, people who chose to take life, obviously suffer the punishment. But a child inside of a girl is her choice, its her life she sacrificed for it, its her choice to accept its birth or not. There are rules to choice, but anyone can do anything. Thats all im saying.

[CrAz3D]

What about the man's role in this?
Does he have now say?

It takes 2 to make a baby

[MyndFyre]

Abortion isn't something people should get scrupulous about. While yes, it is a moral dilemma; it isn't anyone but the one's involved business. It's a person's choice, we live in America and what we are treated with is choice, and abortion will remain choice.

So what you're saying, basically, is that murder should be OK because it's the person's choice who committed murder?

What about the unborn child?  Shouldn't that child have the opportunity to make a choice?

You didn't even address my point.  Society has set acceptable standards of behavior.  We have also made clear what the punishment will be for violating those standards.  When someone commits a crime that calls for capital punishment, he or she is doing something he or she knows can result in the death penalty.  If the person is unable to grasp that, they frequently don't get the death penalty.  He or she is actively making a decision to engage in an activity where a potential consequence is one's own death.

An unborn child has no means by which to make this choice.  Furthermore, the unborn child has not violated society's standards or done anything at all to deserve death.  Having an abortion is a selfish act, and it's costing someone his or her life.  It's acceptable to some people, though, evidently because that person simply can't speak for himself or herself.

Life is choice, people who chose to take life, obviously suffer the punishment. But a child inside of a girl is her choice, its her life she sacrificed for it, its her choice to accept its birth or not. There are rules to choice, but anyone can do anything. Thats all im saying.

Really?  When is the last time the population decided to champion Mersault in The Stranger?  People generally don't like such existentialist ways of life.

While death isn't right, we return to the re-occurring factor; that it's still a choice

The point I'm trying to make (that you've completely missed) is that in crimes that come to capital punishment, the person being put to death has made a decision resulting his or her own death.  An unborn child has not made such a choice.

[Adron]

An unborn child has no means by which to make this choice.  Furthermore, the unborn child has not violated society's standards or done anything at all to deserve death.  Having an abortion is a selfish act, and it's costing someone his or her life.  It's acceptable to some people, though, evidently because that person simply can't speak for himself or herself.

An unborn child has done nothing to deserve death and nothing to deserve life. An unborn child is uncapable of making the choice of life or death. If you are OK with picking a flower, you should be OK with abortion.

[MyndFyre]

An unborn child has no means by which to make this choice.  Furthermore, the unborn child has not violated society's standards or done anything at all to deserve death.  Having an abortion is a selfish act, and it's costing someone his or her life.  It's acceptable to some people, though, evidently because that person simply can't speak for himself or herself.

An unborn child has done nothing to deserve death and nothing to deserve life. An unborn child is uncapable of making the choice of life or death. If you are OK with picking a flower, you should be OK with abortion.

It's not an infant.  It's a fetus.  Don't confuse the two.

Regardless, it's still a different stage in the development of a human.  A being with the capacity for choice, sentience, love, hate, fear, nobility.

[Adron]

It's not an infant.  It's a fetus.  Don't confuse the two.

Regardless, it's still a different stage in the development of a human.  A being with the capacity for choice, sentience, love, hate, fear, nobility.

That is incorrect. It is something that might one day turn into a being with the capacity for <insert>. So is human DNA (see cloning). So is any animal (see evolution). So is a pile of shit (see circle of life).

[Hitmen]

Screw the what ifs, you should be allowed to wait and find out how the kid turns out. If it is not to your liking, you should  be allowed to abort child up until the age of ten.