The abortion-capital punishment debate

[TehUser]

Human life is valuable, but fetus are not humans.

I have to wonder exactly what reasonable basis you have for assuming that human life is valuable.

[Networks]

Human life is valuable, but fetus are not humans.

I have to wonder exactly what reasonable basis you have for assuming that human life is valuable.

It's priceless therefore it's valuable.

[CrAz3D]

Human life is valuable, but fetus are not humans.

I have to wonder exactly what reasonable basis you have for assuming that human life is valuable.

It's priceless therefore it's valuable.

Slaves were assigned a rpice, maybe they aren't human...

[Adron]

Adron addressed this adequately.

Adron never responded to my counterargument about aborting the mother too.  Unless human life apparently is not valuable to you guys, in which case we simply have a difference of opinion.  Although I still stand by my position that everyone conceived deserves the opportunity to live.

Oh, OK. A human fetus is more sensitive to malnourishment or unhealthy substances than an adult. It is not at all impossible to have a miscarriage caused by the mother doing things that do not cause her own death.

[MyndFyre]

No, it's not a moral judgment.  It's a matter of fact.  If you don't want to have a kid, if you absolutely do not want to have a kid, you shouldn't be having sex.  That the only guaranteed 100% way to avoid it.  That's not a moral judgment, it's not a matter of opinion, it's 100% unbiased fact.

Yes but you only mention a subset of girls who fuck "the next guy who comes in the door." You didn't say "If you don't want to have children, don't have sex." There is a difference.

Now you're just grasping for straws, and you know it.  The point holds true for people in a monogomous relationship as much as it does for the girl who fucks the next guy who comes through the door.

Adron never responded to my counterargument about aborting the mother too.  Unless human life apparently is not valuable to you guys, in which case we simply have a difference of opinion.  Although I still stand by my position that everyone conceived deserves the opportunity to live.

Human life is valuable, but fetus are not humans.

Your argument is circular.  Feti are not humans, because human life is valuable, but feti are not valuable because they are not humans.

Just imagine the day such anti-abortion laws are enacted. Then we may just see some soon-to-be teenage mother attempt suicide because they have no other option. Then come tell me you value human life because you sponsored some anti-abortion law.

I'm sorry she feels that way.  She shouldn't have had sex.  Or she could drop the kid off over at the fire station, no questions asked.  Or she could give the child up for adoption.  She needs to face the fact, though, that she had sex and a potential consequence of it came back to bite her in the butt.

[Thing [vL]]

For this reply, I will use the words kill, killed and killing as generic terms used to describe all types of one or more humans causing the death of one or more other humans.

I was taught, as I'm sure most of you were, that some forms of killing are justifiable and other types aren't.  I accepted this because I didn't have the motivation or skills to think for myself.  As I grow older and learn more about humans and their interaction with each other, I slowly began to discover that that teaching was wrong for me.  I'll use examples pertinent to the topic.

A pregnant woman has her pregnancy terminated due to health reasons.
A pregnant woman has her pregnancy terminated because she was raped.
A pregnant woman has her pregnancy terminated because she didn't want to have a child.

The end result is the same.  A child goes unborn and a potential mother has lost that child.  Lay 3 dead fetus in front of me and ask me which were/was killed justifiably.  Without knowing the circumstances of their death, I would have to say either all of them were justified or none of them were.  In each one of those scenarios, the killer thought that it was justifiable.

A man is killed because he commited a crime.
A man is killed because he had sexual intercourse with another man's wife.
A man is killed because he was a member of an opposing warring faction.

In all 3 of these scenarios, a man is punished with death.  A man is dead, his loved ones are deprived of his presence and the killer thought that their action was justified.  I cannot say that any or all of these killings are wrong.  Morals, ethics and law are very localized ideas and I was taught the ones that are specific to my part of society.  Other people in different parts of society and the world have their own ideas of justifiable killing and I cannot say that they are wrong.

For me, the most logical stance is that all abortions and executions are justifiable.

[dxoigmn]

Now you're just grasping for straws, and you know it.  The point holds true for people in a monogomous relationship as much as it does for the girl who fucks the next guy who comes through the door.

No I'm not. You're actively selected a subset of women. You're not saying all women, you're commenting on a subset of women. People in monogomous relationships don't "fuck the next person who comes through the door."

Your argument is circular.  Feti are not humans, because human life is valuable, but feti are not valuable because they are not humans.

No it is not. You asked me if human life is valuable. I respond in the affirmative--"human life is valuable"--but that does not imply fetus are valuable, because to me and others "fetus are not human." There is no circularity, but that last part is highly debatable (as iago pointed out, and Adron has been arguing). I stated it as a matter of fact.

I'm sorry she feels that way.  She shouldn't have had sex.  Or she could drop the kid off over at the fire station, no questions asked.  Or she could give the child up for adoption.  She needs to face the fact, though, that she had sex and a potential consequence of it came back to bite her in the butt.

Shouldn't, wouldn't, couldn't...shit happens. And if she does happen to be in one of those oh-so-generous states, then yes that may be an option. And maybe she could give the child up for adoption; but the girl, brought up through the adoption system, knows how horrible a life that was. Why would she do that? It is almost like a never-ending circle (provided each baby is a girl). She has faced the facts, and because she has no choice, her last choice is then to take her life and subsequently her fetus'.

[Adron]

For me, the most logical stance is that all abortions and executions are justifiable.

Could you define justifiable? That *you* could agree with them, that *someone* could agree with them, or something else?

[CrAz3D]

For me, the most logical stance is that all abortions and executions are justifiable.

Could you define justifiable? That *you* could agree with them, that *someone* could agree with them, or something else?

Probably that the majority of society would agree w/

[WoOdTroll]

When you have a child you need to know its going to be in good hands, not left at some station or whatever. All you're focusing on is that if you're going to have a child wether you want it or not you must keep it, otherwise you're a killer? Bogus, how many times have girls taking pills, and how many fuck-ups have happen? Its natural for people not to want children for 15minutes of fun. And yes in marriages 15 minutes keeps them two happy. Does that mean they must have children if a baby occurs? No. Its choice.

In the end though its her choice to take the risk, and her choice to abort. You need to know when to stop arguing over things that are natural. Its natural not to want a baby, and abort it. How far are you going to take this argument? "Is the first cell that developes in a baby intelligent? That cell shouldn't die for nothing!". Cry me a river, and build me a bridge over it. And if maybe you still havent learnt anything after, jump off it.

[Adron]

Probably that the majority of society would agree w/

The majority of *your* society, of *some* society or something else? Burning witches was accepted practise in *some* society. Cannibalism too.

[CrAz3D]

The USofA I do believe.
Probably not Europe, they're freakin weirdos over there, trying to steal the internet away from us & all, heh

[MyndFyre]

Now you're just grasping for straws, and you know it.  The point holds true for people in a monogomous relationship as much as it does for the girl who fucks the next guy who comes through the door.

No I'm not. You're actively selected a subset of women. You're not saying all women, you're commenting on a subset of women. People in monogomous relationships don't "fuck the next person who comes through the door."

Sure she does... if the next guy to come through the door is her partner.    And you're still holding too literally to my words: the point was, if she can't handle the kid, she shouldn't be having too much fun.

Shouldn't, wouldn't, couldn't...shit happens. And if she does happen to be in one of those oh-so-generous states, then yes that may be an option. And maybe she could give the child up for adoption; but the girl, brought up through the adoption system, knows how horrible a life that was. Why would she do that? It is almost like a never-ending circle (provided each baby is a girl). She has faced the facts, and because she has no choice, her last choice is then to take her life and subsequently her fetus'.

The point is that it isn't her choice to take another's life.  It is that person's.  By aborting the baby, she is making that choice for her child.  As Grok has pointed out, it gives her unequal rights.

[Hitmen]

The point is that it isn't her choice to take another's life

And that is, of course, your opinion. One that many people, and as the law stands, apparently the majority of the people do not agree with.

[CrAz3D]

The point is that it isn't her choice to take another's life

thats an iffy way to word it.
cancels out possibility/justification of execution.
Thats why i dont like pro-life/choice stickers

pro-life means NO death
pro-choice means kill whoever you chose