God, Pledge, WTF

Adron · October 26, 2005, 05:35 PM

You are indeed too caught up in being politically correct. "Non-patriotism" has been a reason for persecuting people to various degrees over different periods. Consider the hunt for communists and what happened to people suspected of communist associations. Or any other "unpatriotism".

CrAz3D · October 27, 2005, 01:20 AM

I believe it is ok to 'persecute' (I use that term lightly) someone for not being patriotic. If you don't love the country why are you in it?

Adron · October 27, 2005, 11:24 AM

In this case, I used "non-patriotism" or "unpatriotism" to mean people critical of their regime or voicing concerns about official policy. They may actually love their country very much, but for not agreeing with the current leader of the country, they are made to suffer. That is the lack of freedom, the lack of freedom to disagree.

Warrior · October 27, 2005, 11:40 AM

I think the words under god SHOULD be removed.

Think of it this way, if you don't belive in god you can choose not to say the pledge. Right? Ok.

Should the people who don't believe in god be excluded from a pledge because of thier religion? No.

Forged · October 27, 2005, 01:20 PM

Quote from: CrAz3D on October 27, 2005, 01:20 AM
I believe it is ok to 'persecute' (I use that term lightly) someone for not being patriotic. If you don't love the country why are you in it?

I was born in it, and it isn't a terrible country. To move would throw off my entire life. Throw in the fact that I don't see any other country that is better than the U.S, I might disagree with a lot of things the country does, but I also agree with a lot of it. I take a nuetral stand on the U.S, don't really like it, don't really dislike it.

Grok · October 27, 2005, 01:43 PM

"If you do not love your country, why are you in it?"

People want to be left alone to live their lives. Wherever they live, there they are. We often leave behind one government when living becomes intolerable, in search of a government under which living is more pleasant. In the United States, we established a government "of the people" to supposedly establish "a more perfect union" amongst the people. The whole idea behind our constitution is to enumerate what things the government is allowed and disallowed to do.

There is no issue of loving your country or not loving it. The government needs to stay out of the way of the people. The "pledge of allegiance" is a silly thing really. You should not have to recite a pledge someone else wrote in order to be deemed a patriotic citizen of that country. I pledge my allegiance to these ideals. What is allegiance? Is that saying you have corresponding beliefs?

If allegiance is a statement of corresponding beliefs, and affirmation to others you belive them, then "under God" does not belong in the pledge. That is crystal clear. Not everyone believes in God, your god, or any god for many. If your goal is creating patriots by offering a pledge for them to recite about your country, why confound it by adding religious allegiance on top? You're sure to alienate many people who otherwise would have pledged allegiance to the country.

Now if your goal is to establish the United States as an official Christian nation, just say so. You won't win, but at least you'd be honest.

Grok · October 27, 2005, 03:13 PM

Here is a quote from Al Thompson's blog:


As men, we know that there is the establishment of government, which,
at least in our country, is supposed to keep people from hurting each
other, and to protect the liberties that come from God. No government or
constitution bestows rights unto man.  In our country the Declaration of
Independence, Articles of Confederation, and the subordinate Constitution
for the United States are the foundational documents that acknowledge all
mens rights. They are intended to put a rein on government, and at the
same time, they are supposed to be used to help protect the rights of
each and every man and woman.

Thus, government cannot tell people to pledge to it at all, as it is of the people entirely and only the people have an ability to choose. There is no concept of allegiance to a government if you think about it, only allegiance to each other.

CrAz3D · October 27, 2005, 04:41 PM

Agreed.

NOTE:
My "love it or leave it" comment was directed at Joe because he stated he has the "misfortune" of living in the United States, it wasn't directed at people who don't believe in God.

Grok · October 27, 2005, 06:09 PM

IRONY is Christians wanting the pledge of allegiance to contain references to God.

God specifically commanded that no swearing or oath may be used which invokes His name.

hismajesty · November 01, 2005, 01:45 PM

The Anglo-Saxons decided that January 1st be the start of the year based on Christ's date of circumcision. Perhaps we, to avoid controversy, should change when the calendar year begins to make sure it isn't religious?

Forged · November 01, 2005, 03:08 PM

Quote from: hismajesty[yL] on November 01, 2005, 01:45 PM
The Anglo-Saxons decided that January 1st be the start of the year based on Christ's date of circumcision. Perhaps we, to avoid controversy, should change when the calendar year begins to make sure it isn't religious?

Jesus had quite a bit of attention payed to his foreskin, that is an interesting peice of info.

Grok · November 01, 2005, 04:51 PM

Christians shouldn't care when the first day of the calendar is or is not. To focus on any dates other than Christ's death and ascension into heaven should be a sin. There are some sects which do this correctly, for example Jehovah's Witness. Say what you want about many of their beliefs, but they practice what they believe for the most part. Most denominations have lots to say about how things should be, but go about leading terribly sinful lives with a big evil grin on their faces. Baptists are probably the worst that I have encountered. Among Baptists, the Southern Baptists are the least Christian.

God has no place in the pledge. God has already commanded that his name not be used to swear, which is the pledge. "I swear to God that I love the United States".

Christians should be the ones suing to have God removed from the pledge.

CrAz3D · November 01, 2005, 04:56 PM

The pledge isn't a swearing to God that one loves the US, it is just saying that the US is under God's watch (or something similar as I see it)

hismajesty · November 01, 2005, 05:15 PM

Agreed with CrAz3D.

"One nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all"

is not saying "I swear to God..."

It's saying: "One nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all"

Grok · November 01, 2005, 10:43 PM

"I pledge ...."

That is an oath, invoked using God's name, and is swearing.

I notice since I originally posted that Christians shouldn't want God in the pledge, that this thread has died. In my experience this only happens to a "hot topic" when someone has posted something so obvious and irrefutable as to make any continued conversation pointless.

So I'll graciously accept your conceding to my argument and take a bow.

I WIN
I WIN
I WIN
I WIN