Complaints Department. READ THIS!

Grok · October 24, 2003, 12:45 PM

For this post I'm taking an adversarial tone of writing, so beware, it is not sugar-coated.

Way too many of you are whining and complaining about the quality of answers given to you, and the tone of the wording of those answers. But hey -- you are being give answers, whether you like the answers or not.

Sometime those answers are direct, other times they tell you to go look for it. Even a message telling you to look for it is HELPING YOU. Most of the time you get that answer, said answerer read your question, searched for an answer, and probably found it so fast that he knew you didn't bother searching yourself. If you get told to "search MSDN" or "google it", then try. And try more than once.

These forums are here because these MEMBERS want them to be. These members WANT to help you out and discuss interesting topics with you. You're coming into their house to share in these discussions, ask questions, provide insights, and maybe learn something along the way.

It's not a friggin paid consulting service. The answers you want you may not get, or may not be to your liking. But it's mostly not about you anyway.

I've said my peace.

Grok · October 24, 2003, 12:46 PM

P.S. If the answer is to fuck off, then do not hesitate to comply.

iago · October 24, 2003, 01:03 PM

This is news?

(Note: I'm not complaining about where you posted this, I'm being sarcastic towards the people who've been consistantly doing this. Thought I'd better make that clear incase the winky didn't)

Adron · October 24, 2003, 01:10 PM

I think you should be clearer in some of your answers Grok. When you specify a search string to use in google, I assume that you have tested it and that the string will produce a good response in the first page of hits. Google sometimes also produces different hits for different people, so it's even better to both paste the url you found and the google string you used - the google string to teach people how to search and the url to ensure they find the same answer you did.

Providing wrong answers without indicating that they are just suggestions of things to try or guesswork is worse than not giving any answer at all. A wrong answer means you're making someone spend a lot of time going down the wrong track, until they finally give up and realize that you've been lying to them.

j0k3r · October 24, 2003, 03:21 PM

Quote from: Adron on October 24, 2003, 01:10 PM
When you specify a search string to use in google, I assume that you have tested it and that the string will produce a good response in the first page of hits. Google sometimes also produces different hits for different people, so it's even better to both paste the url you found and the google string you used - the google string to teach people how to search and the url to ensure they find the same answer you did.

I'm failing to see how spoon feeding them is helping. If someone constantly helps me and tells me exactly what to do I do not think for myself, time and time again I go after that person for the answer. If however they SUGGEST something, and make you work for it yourself over time you will become more self-dependant, resourceful and (dare I say) intelligent.

I have to agree with Grok on this one.

Mitosis · October 24, 2003, 05:06 PM

Hey guys, Im new on here (Iv been on Madz for a while) but those rules you gave out are not hard to follow. For me just being able to talk to guys like you is like an honor. Because there are people on here that cant figure stuff out for themselves isnt your fault as the admins. Its there problem, Im with Grok.

Adron · October 24, 2003, 08:38 PM

Quote from: j0k3r on October 24, 2003, 03:21 PM
I'm failing to see how spoon feeding them is helping. If someone constantly helps me and tells me exactly what to do I do not think for myself, time and time again I go after that person for the answer. If however they SUGGEST something, and make you work for it yourself over time you will become more self-dependant, resourceful and (dare I say) intelligent.

I have to agree with Grok on this one.

Spoon feeding them might help or not, but what you shouldn't do is feed them false answers without making it obvious that you're being ironic or just plain lying to them.

Help to self-help is the best kind of help, but whatever you're saying should be correct. If you don't know the answer, don't pretend that you do and spit out something that's wrong. If you don't know, start your answer with "I think ..." or "A possibility:" or .. you get the idea.

Edit:
You should also differentiate between common and unusual questions. Common questions that have been answered over and over are better to point to self-help. Unusual questions are better answered completely and directly so that people who search the forum get a useful answer directly.

Grok · October 24, 2003, 08:44 PM

That's not even the topic Adron. The post was about how over the last couple months visitors have whined more often about the answers they get. Well if the answers aren't satisfactory, get them somewhere else. There's no sense in being jerks about it.

As far as what you're talking about, when I "feed them false answers", they're typically one-liner type things that are so far off base that no reasonable person would believe them.

I don't know who you're talking about that is "lying", but the tone you're stating it in is an insulting one.

Adron · October 24, 2003, 08:49 PM

It's a long-winding rant because I got annoyed by several instances of stupid answers containing google keywords (not only from you) that don't produce the answer to the question. When I'm reading a question and being vaguely interested in seeing the answer just to widen my knowledge a bit, all those answers that claim to be correct, but really just lead you out on a long chase get highly annoying.

Edit:

And about the insulting, I was following the example set forth in the initial post - no sugar coating.

DarkVirus · October 25, 2003, 09:16 AM

The point is, vL was suppose to be a group to get away from the lamers who reside on the servers we disucss interesting topics. Interesting topics do not include helping the 100th person get their copied bot to connect to b.net when they have no initial understanding of a programming language.

WE the members are not here to serve the 100s of morons that come in the channel, as stated by Grok, that whine and cry about not being able to do something or try to impress us with their false knowlege. The answers we give them are those that are given and if they are not made clear, most of us will elaborate to the point of "spoon feeding" but half the time we, or I do at least, try to point the person in the right direction. I'm not going to post multiple lines of code, finishing a code they can't, and then have them say it was their own. I'll help them to the point of hopfully hurrying them to the answer but in the same time learning as they go. It doesn't help someone to just GIVE them the answer if the answer could easily be obtained off MSDN or another source. In the 2 programming class I've taken (and I've gotton A+'s in both and expect nothing less in the upcomming classes) most of the students will direct questions at ME and I'll HELP them and do they whine? No, because in a classroom setting most don't WANT the answer if they're trying to learn it so they don't feel insulted of the need to complain when I give them an answer that will just help. This is an example as to how people should learn, not the fact that I'm the top ranking student in all my classes

The bottom line is, you (the guest) come in our channel and ask for help, which is fine. But don't complain if we don't have the correct answer in general, our answer isnt blunt enough to where you don't have to exert that extra thought process to search for the solution, or if we think the question is so rediculous, that we basically tell you to fuck off. Questions in my mind deserving such a responce would include asking how to work a copied bot as to which you have no idea how to code in the first place. I will begin shitlisting those people that ask those questions. If you want help then fine, but don't respond when I normally ask your experience in the desired language, as you've read a few tutorials or your main desire as a programmer is to create a bot to add to the thousands out there. It's harsh but don't waste our time.

Hazard · October 25, 2003, 09:51 AM

Adron · October 25, 2003, 10:50 AM

Quote from: DarkVirus on October 25, 2003, 09:16 AM
The point is, vL was suppose to be a group to get away from the lamers who reside on the servers we disucss interesting topics. Interesting topics do not include helping the 100th person get their copied bot to connect to b.net when they have no initial understanding of a programming language.

Couldn't agree more. There are way too many rehashes of answers to the same old questions, which makes it even more important to give a good answer when a new and unique question appears!

j0k3r · October 25, 2003, 11:15 AM

Quote from: DarkVirus on October 25, 2003, 09:16 AM
The answers we give them are those that are given and if they are not made clear, most of us will elaborate to the point of "spoon feeding" but half the time we, or I do at least, try to point the person in the right direction. I'm not going to post multiple lines of code, finishing a code they can't, and then have them say it was their own. I'll help them to the point of hopfully hurrying them to the answer but in the same time learning as they go. It doesn't help someone to just GIVE them the answer if the answer could easily be obtained off MSDN or another source. In the 2 programming class I've taken (and I've gotton A+'s in both and expect nothing less in the upcomming classes) most of the students will direct questions at ME and I'll HELP them and do they whine? No, because in a classroom setting most don't WANT the answer if they're trying to learn it so they don't feel insulted of the need to complain when I give them an answer that will just help. This is an example as to how people should learn, not the fact that I'm the top ranking student in all my classes

He's right, students in my programming class last year would come to me for help over the student teacher, but they never wanted the answer, just a hint towards what they should do or what they shouldn't do. The question which rises from that is how can you create such a setting on the internet, or is it even possible?

As for the rehashing, couldn't it be possible to send an e-mail automatically to everyone who has signed up or does sign up that just tells them to search the forum before posting a question? I'm positive that will cut down on the amount of reposted questions.

[edit]The search features displays posts, and searches through the subject or the message, wouldn't it be better to display thread names? The majority of forum searches display thread names, and that's what people are used to and so can use it more effectively. Just an idea.[/edit]

Mitosis · October 25, 2003, 11:27 AM

Well, I have never leached. The most I have asked was where to find some books. Now guess what, you guys gave me some links and I found them some free books. They worked great. Im still reading them and having fun and when I am confused about something I havent bugged any of you on how to do it. So, people that leach off your coding, I think you guys should like keep track of them (so you know who they are) and dont help them as much?

DarkVirus · October 25, 2003, 11:36 AM

Don't get me wrong, I like most vL members are very ambitious when trying to help other people, thus the reason we take the time to read/post on the forums. It's just the redundant questions that are annoying and again, I hate when people come to us for help who havn't taken the time to search the answers themselves. Those that take the time to help themselves, help themselves become 100x better than those looking for a quick answer. I'm totally self taught and when I joined vL back in the beginning a few years ago, I've always carried the idea that helping those that have helped themselves first is the best form of self gratification.