Best language to start with for noobs?

[Joe[x86]]

Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.

You missed my post, sir. And this is quoted for truth.

Warrior agreed with me.

[Barabajagal]

Even though everyone's going to yell at me...


Any language from the BASIC series is a good one to start with, since BASIC was designed originally to help new programmers learn the system. It was expanded from there when one of the creators realized they could make a fully fledged language that was easy to understand. In short, one of the first high level languages. Since then, Visual Basic has ruined its reputation due to its limited abilities, lack of use of pointers, lack of variable types, etc, although it did greatly improve design time efficiency.

[brew]

Even though everyone's going to yell at me...

WTF WERE YOU THINKING, TELLING PEOPLE TO USE BASIC!? BASIC IS FOR FAGGZ! YOU'RE A FAG FOR USING BASIC! WHAT A NOOB YOU ARE BASIC IS SO HIGH LEVEL YOU SHOULD DIE FOR SUGGESTING BASIC YOU FGT

On a serious note, BASIC is the way to go for most people. It's keywords are easy to understand for people who had never used a computer in their life. Andy is correct, it was made as a learning programming language and wasn't made to make serious programs (PowerBASIC and others today make this not nessisarily true) but instead, maybe work out a complex math question? VB6, a RAD language is a blend of BASIC's easy to understand keywords and the functionality of Win32 API to create complex GUI-based applications very quickly.

However, you are not aiming for this kind of application programming. Based on what you've said so far, you're looking for a low level language (the kind that's used in programming embedded systems) that isn't OOP (face it, you're never going to use OOP in making appliance programs). The language you're looking for is C. It may look a little cryptic at first, but I guarentee it's easy to learn by just having experience with it. You'll learn everything quicker then you'd think. Just be sure to read up on EE, try writing some C, and when you're comfortable enough with C, try working with assembly.
Speaking of EE, does anyone know of a way to write microcode for an x86 processor? and have it execute that? I'm thinking not.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Bullshit on what? C# is supported on the 360 via XNA, and Mobile Phones/Embedded Devices via the Compact Framework.
Where's the bullshit?

The bullshit is actually trying to argue that .NET is available on more platforms than Java. Yeah, ok chief. Everyone is laughing. Java is on most phones, most PCs, and PlayStation 3. Basically, all of the major embedded platforms (ARM) and personal platforms (SPARC, IA32/64, and PPC) as well as their operating systems.

Obvious he doesn't have a class disposable to him if he's asking here for help isn't it? Why teach him something he'll already learn? Why not teach him an up and coming language with deep potential in the industry (C#)? Why not teach him the advantages of Managed languages early on?

Fair, but quite an assumption. Although Java really has more market penetration than C#, I'll say that Java and C# have similar market penetration, and although Java has more online learning resources and books than C#, I'll say that they have similar online learning resources and books, too. You win.

This goes back to my "Why do it the hard way" question. When you don't use C#, you lose time, and time equals money.
C# truely is the superior managed language, with D leading the front of unmanaged languages. I'd suggest either one due to their obvious advantages over C/C++.

So. You want the .NET runtime to run your car's ECU. What a great idea. Get back to me if you survive your beta test.

D can even be configured to work at a very low level by implementing (the basics) of the runtime. I've done it in maybe a day or two, and it's pretty simple to work with. It addresses much of the failures of C and C++ while maintaining backwards compatability.

NO ONE USES D.

Again however, I stress the question: Why do we start programmers off in unmanaged languages? Why confuse them with the intricacies and failures of the unmanaged world?

This is why you are totally missing the point. I would normally agree with you (and suggest Python, to stop confusing them with the intricacies and failings of static typing), but in this specific instance, he wants to learn SYSTEMS programming. In this situation, these intricacies and failings are a HUGE part of what he needs to learn. Learning them sooner rather than later is the way to go.

In the unmanaged world they have to deal with glaring security issues in the language itself, or use extra baggage in safe libraries to maintain a secure Application. Why? Why go through all the trouble? Java remedies this, but the language itself is inferior to C#. You need to look at the whole picture, all of the advantages given by Managed Code and C#.

You're right. But please use the term "VM" or "safe" rather than Managed Code. .NET managed code isn't the only thing that does this you know.

Code Select Expand


Having the Libraries to do just about anything in C# is a godsend for a programmer looking to learn the technique. It has features of every modern language (and even moreso in C# 3.0). I'm having a trouble seeing why it WOULDN'T be worthy of a first language.

It works under Windows, Linux, XBox 360, Mobile Phones, and since the language itself is an EMCA Standard it can be reimplemented without the .NET Framework.
[/quote]

Agreed, but see above.

[quote]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
[quote]
I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.
[/quote]

Silly
[/quote]

Tell me, what else rivals Visual Studio? You're delusional if you think Eclipse comes anywhere close.
[/quote]

I'd say Visual Studio is better, yeah, but Eclipse is pretty close to the same damn thing. I designed the communication systems for the US Air Force in both IDEs, and they were pretty similar and kind of crappy. I switched to EMACS.

[quote]
[quote author=Banana fanna fo fanna link=topic=17074.msg173574#msg173574 date=1191579922]
Nah I'm pretty sure you are totally missing the point and most sane people would agree with me. Sorry kiddo.

I'd write out a full response to you but it would look strikingly similar to what I just posted, plus I need to leave for practice in a half hour.
[/quote]

What's your point? Your last post with any sort of substance didn't really explain much. You're big on words but small on actually getting your message across.  Sounds an awful lot like you're running out of things to say.

I mean, at least when I argued this same thing with Camel on the x86 forums he was able to come up with some competent responses.

Your arguments are weak, your excuses for them are even weaker. I'm not trying to impress anyone, or get anyone on my side because frankly I don't care. I'm trying to help the original poster out, and lay out his options for him.  I'm not here to have a shit talking contest with you, if I cared about what you said as much maybe. Until then, no.

[/quote]
[/quote]

I don't think I was very wordy. I just think that

a) Your point about .NET being supported on more platforms was a blatant lie
b) You're right about C# being a good language for beginners
c) C# is not a good language for beginners who want to jump to systems programming

Warrior: Have you ever designed an operating system? Implemented preemptive multitasking? Programmed in Java even? Appears that you haven't...

[Warrior]

The bullshit is actually trying to argue that .NET is available on more platforms than Java. Yeah, ok chief. Everyone is laughing. Java is on most phones, most PCs, and PlayStation 3. Basically, all of the major embedded platforms (ARM) and personal platforms (SPARC, IA32/64, and PPC) as well as their operating systems.

Where did I say that? Where did I say .NET is availible on more platforms than Java? You're getting so ahead of yourself you're breaking tables.

So. You want the .NET runtime to run your car's ECU. What a great idea. Get back to me if you survive your beta test.

Look it's Banana yet again missing the point, surprise surprise. Get your head out of your ass, quit the superiority act and read what I'm saying.

NO ONE USES D.

I can say "NO ONE USES JAVA" too and provide no statistics to back it up. See, I can be just like you.

This is why you are totally missing the point. I would normally agree with you (and suggest Python, to stop confusing them with the intricacies and failings of static typing), but in this specific instance, he wants to learn SYSTEMS programming. In this situation, these intricacies and failings are a HUGE part of what he needs to learn. Learning them sooner rather than later is the way to go.

Did you miss the part where he later says it does not matter what language he uses? You need to learn to walk before you crawl, no one dives right into systems programming.
Give me a break.

a) Your point about .NET being supported on more platforms was a blatant lie

Never stated that, at all. I merely rebutted your "Java works on other Platforms" with "So does C#". How is that saying that it works on "more" platforms?

c) C# is not a good language for beginners who want to jump to systems programming

I think it does what needs to get done well. You learn the basics of programming, and as long as he can make the distinction between "safe" and "unsafe" code,
and knows the difference between systems and high level programming he should be fine.

Warrior: Have you ever designed an operating system? Implemented preemptive multitasking? Programmed in Java even? Appears that you haven't...

Yes to the first two, and I've done some light work in Java. I used C and tidbits of ASM in my OS Development days, and the point of me citing Singularity and OSes such as JNode
was to make a point that C is not the only low level programming language. I'm not trying to say that either Java or C# are better than C as systems programming, I'm saying that C is not the best.
There are other competant languages, and if it's an issue down to personal tastes it is a very practical option to have a VM running at a low level in the system.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!

[devcode]

No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!

Thank you Thank you, I know you'll appreciate my well deserved victory in this thread!

[Warrior]

No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!

You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.

[Yegg]

Even though everyone's going to yell at me...


Any language from the BASIC series is a good one to start with, since BASIC was designed originally to help new programmers learn the system. It was expanded from there when one of the creators realized they could make a fully fledged language that was easy to understand. In short, one of the first high level languages. Since then, Visual Basic has ruined its reputation due to its limited abilities, lack of use of pointers, lack of variable types, etc, although it did greatly improve design time efficiency.

As is Pascal (FreePascal).

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

No good rebuttals there. I'm done. I win!

You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.

I wouldn't say I made an ass of myself. I just enjoy flamewars, everyone here knows that But I also constructively contribute.

[Camel]

Yea, it's enjoyable discussing with you. I was merely pointing it out. Much easier when it isn't degenerated to ad hominem attacks.

You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.

Funny.

[Warrior]

Yea, it's enjoyable discussing with you. I was merely pointing it out. Much easier when it isn't degenerated to ad hominem attacks.

You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.

Funny.

What's funny? The fact that I stated it had already gotten to that point? Hey, if it gets there best believe I'm going to participate.

If you're so keen on nitpicking my posts, you should attack the whole thing.

[devcode]

Yea, it's enjoyable discussing with you. I was merely pointing it out. Much easier when it isn't degenerated to ad hominem attacks.

You should of "won" two posts ago and saved making an ass out of yourself.
But hats off to you, it's not many that can do so with such elegance.

Funny.

What's funny? The fact that I stated it had already gotten to that point? Hey, if it gets there best believe I'm going to participate.

If you're so keen on nitpicking my posts, you should attack the whole thing.

Can I join ur teem? You guys are so kewllL!!

[Dale]

Why doesn't someone close this thread? It's an argument against opinions and personal preferences.

[Warrior]

Can I join ur teem? You guys are so kewllL!!

thanks guy