Best language to start with for noobs?

[brew]

Its all good dale, just ignore those posts .  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.

You don't have to go to school for that.

If you can learn EE from a For Dummies book I'll give you my firstborn son.

The first person who does something did that something without schooling for that something.

You're that someone i'm guessing?

[Yegg]

Its all good dale, just ignore those posts .  Userloser what kind of car do you have? I was thinking of getting a greddy ultimate e management, but Id eventually like to make my own ecu for the car, but I know I'll have to goto school for that stuff.  Thanks for everyones responses I appreciate your time and response.

You don't have to go to school for that.

If you can learn EE from a For Dummies book I'll give you my firstborn son.

The first person who does something did that something without schooling for that something.

You're that someone i'm guessing?

What the hell? I'm saying, when something was created for the first time, somebody created it without having specifically studied it prior to the creation. When a computer was made, the creator(s) didn't go to school for computers prior to that. You can learn EE without being taught by a school.

[Warrior]

Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.

I'm probably the most qualified one posting in this thread. Warrior is wrong.

For your particular case, omnispyder, you want to learn C. If you find it too difficult, try Java first and then move on. There are lots of resources online for both languages, and they'll run on all of the PC platforms you're likely to use, and C is most likely to run on your target platform (the car).

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[Warrior]

Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.

I'm probably the most qualified one posting in this thread. Warrior is wrong.

For your particular case, omnispyder, you want to learn C. If you find it too difficult, try Java first and then move on. There are lots of resources online for both languages, and they'll run on all of the PC platforms you're likely to use, and C is most likely to run on your target platform (the car).

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

Don't listen to him. Learn C#.
You're welcome, for the thanks you'll be giving me down the road.

Seriously, if you're suggesting Java what's the harm in C#? In fact, what are the benefits of Java over C#?

C over C#?

You know, other than drowning the to-be programmer with the ruggedness of C. That's probably a mild way to describe it.
Let's give him a nice high level language with the potential to be very powerful when used correctly.

In a more open minded manner, I'd suggest Java as well but the .NET Programmer in me is yelling C# at the top of his lungs.

Why people submit themselves to more work and less power in a programming language is beyond me.

[Falcon[anti-yL]]

Just in case you want to look into Java, the Java API documentation is very helpful.
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/

[Hell-Lord]

I would most certainly recommend C# but i wouldn't brush off VB.NET it has a lot of good features to and the 2008 version will have a lot of advancements over C# (and visa versa).

[FrOzeN]

Essentially you want to learn C, and grasp a bit of an understanding with Assembly. The suggestion of Java is simply there in case you find learning C a bit hard at first. By picking up some Java if will make the transition of learning C at a bit later stage easier. I'm not sure learning C# will help you learning C at a later stage as I haven't looked into it much, but personally I'd skip learning either it or Java and jump straight into focusing your attention towards C.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Everyone in this thread is wrong.

Learn C#.

I'm probably the most qualified one posting in this thread. Warrior is wrong.

For your particular case, omnispyder, you want to learn C. If you find it too difficult, try Java first and then move on. There are lots of resources online for both languages, and they'll run on all of the PC platforms you're likely to use, and C is most likely to run on your target platform (the car).

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

Don't listen to him. Learn C#.
You're welcome, for the thanks you'll be giving me down the road.

Seriously, if you're suggesting Java what's the harm in C#? In fact, what are the benefits of Java over C#?

C over C#?

You know, other than drowning the to-be programmer with the ruggedness of C. That's probably a mild way to describe it.
Let's give him a nice high level language with the potential to be very powerful when used correctly.

In a more open minded manner, I'd suggest Java as well but the .NET Programmer in me is yelling C# at the top of his lungs.

Why people submit themselves to more work and less power in a programming language is beyond me.

Like, are you kidding me?

First, did you read his fucking post? He wants to do systems level programming for an embedded realtime architecture that deals with car engines. Are you going to run Java or C# on that? No. Are you going to need to be familiar with the low-level guts of a machine architecture, knowledge that you would gain from learning C? Yes. Is C ported to just about every architecture known to man? Yeah.

Second, did you read my fucking post? I suggested C, but also suggested if it overwhelmed him ("drowning the to-be programmer with the ruggedness of C") to learn Java. First, he's not going to be writing complex object-oriented enterprise systems if he's dealing with an ECU. But regardless, if C confuses him, Java is the obvious choice over C#. Why? Java is FAR MORE widespread, supported on FAR MORE platforms (including embedded systems mind you) and, abso-fucking-lutely-most-importantly, there is a GIANT repository of great resources online as well as in academia designed to teach someone the discipline of computer science using Java. Let me emphasize that most, if not all, beginning CS courses teach Java, including (for the highschooler) the AP exam. So yeah, actually, Java is better for a beginner to learn. Sorry champ.

Not that C# is a bad language or anything. When it comes to designing an "enterprise system" (basically, anything with components that talk to each other over a network), I always go for C#. It's a great language with many Java-inspired features, with the toolset and class libraries to back it up. Unfortunately, however, C# is not the greatest beginner language, as Microsoft loves to tie their languages to their development tools (see today's Visual Studio.NET and yesterday's VB6).

So yeah, Warrior, you're totally wrong. Sorry brohan. This was probably too harsh a post as I am drunk, sorry in advance.

[Warrior]

First, did you read his fucking post? He wants to do systems level programming for an embedded realtime architecture that deals with car engines. Are you going to run Java or C# on that?

He's going to do systems programming on his first jump into the programming world? Thanks but no thanks. Considering the fact that he stated he didnt care what language he used, it's definitely a starting point. Would help to read what he's saying instead of ranting off into irrelevancy. Thanks.

I read your post, hence me questioning your suggestions (duh?), you're choosing Java over C# because it's supported on more platforms? As his first language?

Considering C# is supported on the XBox 360, on Mobile Phones, and in other embedded devices (Love the Compact Framework?), you're pretty wrong. Let's try to keep your bullshit to acceptable levels.

What classes are taught in CS courses is irrelevant, it's what programming language has the flexibility and the tools needed right now to get the job done. If you're going to suggest Java, then C# is obviously the next logical answer. There's no way around it, and arguing against it is stupid.

I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.

So let's recap:

1) You're suggesting a bad language
2) You're suggesting a worse language
3) You're suggesting them for the wrong reasons

Yep, looks like you failed pretty horribly. Thanks.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

He's going to do systems programming on his first jump into the programming world? Thanks but no thanks. Considering the fact that he stated he didnt care what language he used, it's definitely a starting point. Would help to read what he's saying instead of ranting off into irrelevancy. Thanks.

Sassy

I read your post, hence me questioning your suggestions (duh?), you're choosing Java over C# because it's supported on more platforms? As his first language?

Yeah

Considering C# is supported on the XBox 360, on Mobile Phones, and in other embedded devices (Love the Compact Framework?), you're pretty wrong. Let's try to keep your bullshit to acceptable levels.

No. This is total bullshit and you know it.

What classes are taught in CS courses is irrelevant, it's what programming language has the flexibility and the tools needed right now to get the job done. If you're going to suggest Java, then C# is obviously the next logical answer. There's no way around it, and arguing against it is stupid.

Our friend here is looking to learn. Learning often happens in classes...doesn't it? Tools for both have similar featuresets (though .NET has Java beat by a little bit IMO) but I feel Java can be decoupled more from its tools (which is a Good Thing for people learning about programming)

I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.

Silly

So let's recap:

1) You're suggesting a bad language

No

2) You're suggesting a worse language

No

3) You're suggesting them for the wrong reasons

No

Yep, looks like you failed pretty horribly. Thanks.

Nah I'm pretty sure you are totally missing the point and most sane people would agree with me. Sorry kiddo.

I'd write out a full response to you but it would look strikingly similar to what I just posted, plus I need to leave for practice in a half hour.

[Hell-Lord]

I would have to agree with Banana on this, C is perfect for system level programming. It was designed purely for System programming.

[Warrior]

I shouldn't grace you with a response, but it's fun watching you try to side step this.

Considering C# is supported on the XBox 360, on Mobile Phones, and in other embedded devices (Love the Compact Framework?), you're pretty wrong. Let's try to keep your bullshit to acceptable levels.

No. This is total bullshit and you know it.

Bullshit on what? C# is supported on the 360 via XNA, and Mobile Phones/Embedded Devices via the Compact Framework.
Where's the bullshit?

Our friend here is looking to learn. Learning often happens in classes...doesn't it? Tools for both have similar featuresets (though .NET has Java beat by a little bit IMO) but I feel Java can be decoupled more from its tools (which is a Good Thing for people learning about programming)

Obvious he doesn't have a class disposable to him if he's asking here for help isn't it? Why teach him something he'll already learn? Why not teach him an up and coming language with deep potential in the industry (C#)? Why not teach him the advantages of Managed languages early on?

This goes back to my "Why do it the hard way" question. When you don't use C#, you lose time, and time equals money.
C# truely is the superior managed language, with D leading the front of unmanaged languages. I'd suggest either one due to their obvious advantages over C/C++.

D can even be configured to work at a very low level by implementing (the basics) of the runtime. I've done it in maybe a day or two, and it's pretty simple to work with. It addresses much of the failures of C and C++ while maintaining backwards compatability.

Again however, I stress the question: Why do we start programmers off in unmanaged languages? Why confuse them with the intricacies and failures of the unmanaged world?

In the unmanaged world they have to deal with glaring security issues in the language itself, or use extra baggage in safe libraries to maintain a secure Application. Why? Why go through all the trouble? Java remedies this, but the language itself is inferior to C#. You need to look at the whole picture, all of the advantages given by Managed Code and C#.

Having the Libraries to do just about anything in C# is a godsend for a programmer looking to learn the technique. It has features of every modern language (and even moreso in C# 3.0). I'm having a trouble seeing why it WOULDN'T be worthy of a first language.

It works under Windows, Linux, XBox 360, Mobile Phones, and since the language itself is an EMCA Standard it can be reimplemented without the .NET Framework.

I find that the language (aside from being an EMCA standard, let's talk about Microsoft's implementation with .NET) is better because of it's tight integration with the IDE. Visual Studio is probably the best IDE on the market right now, completely blowing the competition away.

Silly

Tell me, what else rivals Visual Studio? You're delusional if you think Eclipse comes anywhere close.

Nah I'm pretty sure you are totally missing the point and most sane people would agree with me. Sorry kiddo.

I'd write out a full response to you but it would look strikingly similar to what I just posted, plus I need to leave for practice in a half hour.

What's your point? Your last post with any sort of substance didn't really explain much. You're big on words but small on actually getting your message across.  Sounds an awful lot like you're running out of things to say.

I mean, at least when I argued this same thing with Camel on the x86 forums he was able to come up with some competent responses.

Your arguments are weak, your excuses for them are even weaker. I'm not trying to impress anyone, or get anyone on my side because frankly I don't care. I'm trying to help the original poster out, and lay out his options for him.  I'm not here to have a shit talking contest with you, if I cared about what you said as much maybe. Until then, no.

[Warrior]

I would have to agree with Banana on this, C is perfect for system level programming. It was designed purely for System programming.

And your experience in System programming is what? Or are you just going with the grain?
It's advantages at the system level are outweighed by it's bad points.

You act as if C is the only language you can work at the lowest level with. Considering even Java and C# have been used for Systems programming (however, highly unpractical to implement by most hobbyists), it does show the viability of other languages as System level languages.

Some that come to mind are Pascal and D as languages which can easily have their toolchain edited to work at the low level. Both are pretty fun too.

[Hell-Lord]

My experience with system level programming is very low, but i know which languages are best suited for which style of programming. I also understand that majority of the things done in C could be completed in C#., after all it was influenced by C/C++.