Religion

[Yegg]

Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.

So when a baby is born it has sinned already?

Yes, infact it has. Greed. But there is an age of accountability, someone who has never had the opportunity to know Christ is not condemned for it.

Exactly.

[quasi-modo]

What I was wondering, if you didn't believe in God and as said before lived life without intending to do anything bad despite small hiccups time to time, aswell as being helpful to those amoung you etc.. When faced on judgement day (?) and he decides whether you go to Heaven on not. Will he say "No, because you didn't accept Jesus as your saviour to have your sins revoked."? or are other there other varibles here that I'm missing?

You can still get into Heaven, however you'd be sent to Purgatory beforehand.

Support that. Justify that with the verse I posted in my previous post.

http://www.answers.com/purgatory

It is a Catholic teaching.

Way to not answer the question. I know the catholics believe in it, I'm not an idiot. I wanted you to justify your belief in it, not post a dictionary link to it. Please support your claims that I can get to heaven through any other means than accpeting Jesus Christ as my savior. Try giving me something biblical here.

Ok, something Biblical. The Bible states that you must be "white as snow", referring to your soul, to get into Heaven. If you're white as snow, you would have absolutely no sin on your soul. This is false for anyone other than Jesus and his Mother. If you believe that since the Bible doesn't mention anything by the name of Purgatory (it mentions a place like it, without using the word, the word was made by the Roman Catholic Church) and that you either go to heaven or Hell, then with your philosophy everyone goes straight to Hell because no one is pure of sin.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name

1st Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

and of course, plain as day, romans 10:13
For whoever calls  on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

This is what the bible says, repetedly: All you have to do is accpet in Christ and your sins are redeemed. You are infact white as snow. You don't have to jump through any hoops. Its just a simple decision. Can you justify your belief in purgatory with those verses I have posted? Not only does the bible not use the word purgatory, but nothing remotely similar is even described, I challenge you to find verses in support of it, because I've never seen it.

Also, I do not believe Mary was sinless. I believe she was a sinner just like everyone else. I've never read any verse claiming that she was pure.

Purgatory gives one the chance to accept Jesus as their Savior if they failed to do this with their life on Earth. Padre Pio was visited by the soul of a crooked priest, this priest asked him to pray for his soul. Padre Pio had massed held for his soul, asked others to pray for him, and of course he himself prayed for the priest's soul. Sometime later, he was again visited by the soul of the priest and the priest told him that because of all the prayer's said for him, he had been welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven.

Is this good enough?

Everyone is given an opportunity on earth to accept Jesus as their savior (if you are not then that falls into the special case of accountability, which applies to infants, etc). It is a simple choice, to accept Jesus or to reject him. If you reject him you are not admitted into heaven. God wants you to do this based on faith, not after you are already being punished for not doing it. That's like doing something your dad asked you to do after you are already being punished for not doing it.

[Yegg]

I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

[quasi-modo]

I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

I never said you did, I'm saying not only does the bible not use the word but it doesn't talk about anything remotely similar to purgatory.

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

Because that is what you are posting about. You must have a reason for believing it, right? So how come you do? Have you reached that conclusion on your own through biblical study or are you just going off of what you have been told?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

Mary's mother? Where did you hear that? Because that is another thing I have not seen in the bible.
What I've come to believe: Mary could have sinned all day and it would not have affected the flesh of Christ. Why? Because Sin is transmitted through man. That is why there was a virgin birth. How could Jesus be born with a sinless flesh if sin were transmitted through both parents and mary was born of two sinning parents? Why not just have a sinless Joseph too in that case? Why have a virgin birth at all of Christ could be sinless and born of man? Joseph and Mary were both sinners, but since only sin can be transmitted through a man Mary was impregnated by the Lord and not a man. I can't post any verses supporting this off the top of my head (kind of obscure stuff), but I do recall verses related to the transmission of Adams sin in Genesis and related prophesy other places in the old testament. This isn't something reiterated through the bible as much though, it isn't something as fundamental as a faith based salvation.


The reason I keep asking you to back things up with some biblical support is because your arguments are all based on what you have been told, none of it rooted in the bible. You can't formulate your own beliefs if you don't get your information from the source.

[topaz]

I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.

[Yegg]

I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.

I'm done with this thread.

[l2k-Shadow]

And by the way, don't bother brining Michael Jackson into the picture. Do you know what kind of a life he lived? Do you know how abusive his father was, especially to Michael? Do you know what he witnessed as a young child? Do you know for a fact that he did anything with little boys? Do you know that he never got to be a kid while he was young? Ever think that his Netherland may be his way of getting to be like a kid now? And that to him sleeping with little boys means nothing wrong because it would be like if he was a little boy as well?

Hmm ok, and I was abused by my mother for 12 years, she broke my fingers on a regular basis, hit me, did not let me see my father, and when I did go to visit him, she threw me out on the street. Not to mention of the mental abuse I suffered from her lesbian girlfriend. I went through multiple years of depression, therapy, and drinking. Right now I don't have a mom, have not seen her for 3 years, and I hard times saying anything to women at the fear of being backstabbed or hurt, and the thought of even having a girlfriend is scaring me. So yeah, it really does suck I'm not gay. But yeah, I had a wonderful childhood, I got to be a little kid when I had my tooth punched out and being scared of going to bed at night at the fear of being hurt by my mother if I fell asleep. I know story of Michael Jackson, but sleeping with little boys is just wrong + there are proofs that catholic priests did rape little boys. So yeah, point stands.

EDIT: And see how people of different religions are already getting into verbal arguements? Not about the religion, but about personal beliefs (which we all knew would happen with this thread), and about how one interprets what the religion says. I interpret it a different way you do, I base my beliefs more around what's actually happening, than around the abstract idea of God.

[Yegg]

And by the way, don't bother brining Michael Jackson into the picture. Do you know what kind of a life he lived? Do you know how abusive his father was, especially to Michael? Do you know what he witnessed as a young child? Do you know for a fact that he did anything with little boys? Do you know that he never got to be a kid while he was young? Ever think that his Netherland may be his way of getting to be like a kid now? And that to him sleeping with little boys means nothing wrong because it would be like if he was a little boy as well?

Hmm ok, and I was abused by my mother for 12 years, she broke my fingers on a regular basis, hit me, did not let me see my father, and when I did go to visit him, she threw me out on the street. Not to mention of the mental abuse I suffered from her lesbian girlfriend. I went through multiple years of depression, therapy, and drinking. Right now I don't have a mom, have not seen her for 3 years, and I hard times saying anything to women at the fear of being backstabbed or hurt, and the thought of even having a girlfriend is scaring me. So yeah, it really does suck I'm not gay. But yeah, I had a wonderful childhood, I got to be a little kid when I had my tooth punched out and being scared of going to bed at night at the fear of being hurt by my mother if I fell asleep. I know story of Michael Jackson, but sleeping with little boys is just wrong + there are proofs that catholic priests did rape little boys. So yeah, point stands.

EDIT: And see how people of different religions are already getting into verbal arguements? Not about the religion, but about personal beliefs (which we all knew would happen with this thread), and about how one interprets what the religion says. I interpret it a different way you do, I base my beliefs more around what's actually happening, than around the abstract idea of God.

Sorry to hear that about your childhood. To MJ, sleeping with those boys was not wrong at all. Sure there's proof that boys have been molested by Catholic priests, but there is no proof that MJ did the same.

I agree with your second paragraph which is why I've chosen to be done with this thread, it goes nowhere.

[quasi-modo]

It would have been nice if this thread could have remained a civil digussion....

[topaz]

I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.

I'm done with this thread.

Cute, running away when you're asked to defend your beliefs.

[quasi-modo]

I never said the Bible used the word "purgatory" at all, I even said that in one of my posts, why not go back and read them?

Why should I have to justify my own belief in purgatory?

The Catholic Church believes that Mary was born without original sin. Why? Because Jesus was born without it. If the humanly version of God was supposed to be put in the womb of a human Woman, don't you think that person should have been born without original sin? Mary's mother also said that there was something different about Mary that was not the same about the other kids her age. She could not recall a time when Mary had sinned.

Where the fuck are you getting this from? State at least two passages showing the above, and also about the Bible's description of the 'Purgatory'.

I'm done with this thread.

Cute, running away when you're asked to defend your beliefs.

You weren't exactly delicate when questioning him. Your recent posts in this thread have been rather inflamatory.

[FrOzeN]

Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.

So when a baby is born it has sinned already?

Yes, infact it has. Greed. But there is an age of accountability, someone who has never had the opportunity to know Christ is not condemned for it.

How is being born, being greedy?

[quasi-modo]

Wrong again. All of mankind has sinned, and only when you accept Jesus as your savior and ask for forgiveness will you be saved and go to Heaven.

So when a baby is born it has sinned already?

Yes, infact it has. Greed. But there is an age of accountability, someone who has never had the opportunity to know Christ is not condemned for it.

How is being born, being greedy?

Well what is the first thing a baby does from the womb? It cries. So you feed it, give it attention. But like any other human it keeps wanting more, does it not? The sinning begins almost immediately. But, that is not to say that a child that dies soon after birth, or even a kid several years of age, will go to hell. I believe in an age of accounability, as do many others. I can provide some support for this if you would like me to, but I do not believe that you would be cast into hell if you sin without the knowledge of sin and you have not accepted in Jesus Christ because you have no knowledge of him.

[FrOzeN]

One other thing, can thought be sin?

Eg, your married and you pass a hot girl and would love to get with her. Although it's thought only and you have no intentions to follow up on it as it would be cheating. Can thought be considered a sin?

[Yegg]

One other thing, can thought be sin?

Eg, your married and you pass a hot girl and would love to get with her. Although it's thought only and you have no intentions to follow up on it as it would be cheating. Can thought be considered a sin?

You're thinking of "adultery at heart". So yes, it is a sin.