Canadian Election

[Rule]

Um... good point.  Invert brought it up.  And just because someone posts something
stupid doesn't give you the right to do the same.

[CrAz3D]

I believe it was all relevant.

We're talking about the Canadian election, Invert provided a clip of a Canadian that doesn't like the extreme leftism that takes place there, someone mentioned that the dude might not be credible because he was arrested, I mentioned that Clinton committed a felony & asked if he was still credible.

I believe it all works out.

Now we're both slightly off topic arguing about the on-topicness of some of the posts

[iago]

Ok, Clinton definitely isn't credible.  Neither is Bush or Reagan or Harper or Martin.  They're all liars, how else would they manage to get elected?  Isn't there a saying, "Anybody who is capable of getting elected to president shouldn't be allowed to do the job"?  I wish I had the source for that quote, or whatever the actual quote is, but it's a good one. 

But that guy on that radio thing is even less credible, because much of what he says are either blatant lies, or are special cases (maybe he just has a really, really crappy hospital).  The longest I've ever known anybody to wait as a hospital, in a non-emergency situation, is 5-6 hours.  That's for something that isn't going to kill them.  Pregnancies are admitted instantly, and somebody who is in critical condition is admitted immediately.  I've never heard of a miscarriage in the waiting room before.  And all emergency room doctors are fully trained and licensed, not some student who does half a job.  The only way I could POSSIBLY see any of that happening is if he went to the hospital for a really stupid reason (maybe he had a piece of wire pierce his skin and do no real damage, but he wanted to prove a point by tying up the hospital, so they put him last on the queue?)  I'm rather curious about how bad his "injury" actually was. 

Also, we don't have 15% federal tax.  Where I live, we have 7% provincial and 7% federal sales tax, which I think is totally understandable.  In Alberta, they have 7% federal tax, and that's it.  Again, he's generalizing to make things sound worse than they are.  I can safely say that I've never complained about sales tax, it's just a part of life.  And my dad's family makes about the same as he does, per year, and he doesn't pay nearly as much income tax.  So I don't know where he lives, but he's got that wrong, too. 

Suffice it to say, that guy is full of crap.

[CrAz3D]

14% sales tax is still way high.
When ours went to 7% I was depressed

[iago]

14% sales tax is still way high.
When ours went to 7% I was depressed

Americans have local sales tax (for states) between 3% and 10%, and no national tax.  So technically, on average, your states' sales tax (about 7%) is the same as ours (7%).  The difference is that you don't have a federal sales tax, and we do.  I still don't think 14% is that bad, though, it could be a lot worse.  The money we give there helps the country. 

[CrAz3D]

14% sales tax is still way high.
When ours went to 7% I was depressed

Americans have local sales tax (for states) between 3% and 10%, and no national tax.  So technically, on average, your states' sales tax (about 7%) is the same as ours (7%).  The difference is that you don't have a federal sales tax, and we do.  I still don't think 14% is that bad, though, it could be a lot worse.  The money we give there helps the country. 

I guess it could be worse, yeah.
What is your income tax percentage?

[iago]

14% sales tax is still way high.
When ours went to 7% I was depressed

Americans have local sales tax (for states) between 3% and 10%, and no national tax.  So technically, on average, your states' sales tax (about 7%) is the same as ours (7%).  The difference is that you don't have a federal sales tax, and we do.  I still don't think 14% is that bad, though, it could be a lot worse.  The money we give there helps the country. 

I guess it could be worse, yeah.
What is your income tax percentage?

Right now, since I'm going to University and can claim my education, I'm paying 0%. 

But on a paycheck of $1200, I was paying about $150 (though I got it back).  150/1200 = 12.5%.  I have no idea if that's typical, though. 

Wikipedia doesn't have information on Canadian income tax, but I *believe* that, according to this page, the average Canadian family pays 10.7%, and the average Canadian individual pays 17.4%.  But I could be fully wrong, I'm not positive that that's what that page means.  But that sure doesn't come close to the 50% that that guy's claiming. 

[Rule]

Suffice it to say, that guy is full of crap.

I'd also like comment on his statement that people aren't interested in medicine as a profession anymore, "because the money's not there."  Approximately 70% of 1st year science undergraduates identify themselves as "pre-med," and the average income of a general practicioner is > $150000/year (since Doctors are mostly funded by the government, I get this figure from publicly available billing statements; however, since some of their income is based on private operations, etc, the average income is actually a bit higher than this).  Although many may claim otherwise, it's quite transparent that most of these so-called "pre-med" students are interested in the profession for the money, and the prestige.  So not only is he horribly mistaken about the lack of interest in medicine, he is also grossly wrong in his reason for the supposed lack of interest.  Seems like he's willing to say anything to make Canada look bad -- like I said, it's pretty easy to look up how much Doctors are making, they are government employees.

Also, that guy could have gone to a walk-in clinic and have been seen in less than 20 minutes (for free!) for his likely trivial problem.  If you go to the emergency room for a problem that obviously isn't an emergency, you're an idiot, and you should expect to wait a long time to be seen.

As far as Canada being "leftist" (a somewhat ignorant sounding expression, in my opinion), we are further to "the right" of middle than most first world countries -- France, Great Britain, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Austria, Switzerland.  All of these places have a very high standard of living.  We currently have a more left-wing government than the US, but people (in the US) seem to forget that the US is more of an exception in their place on the spectrum (as far as first world countries go), rather than a standard.



In further news, it looks like the Conservatives are going to win a minority government in tomorrow's election.

[Invert]

My post was not about U.S. being better than Canada or vice versa. My post was about Canada being too liberal. If fact so liberal that it blames U.S. for its problems, attitude like that does not help Canada in any way. I believe that liberalism is harmful to any nation.

I don't listen to that show I just found the audio file on the internet. iago they did not "take a Canadian who loves Americans" he called the show to express his views about liberalism in Canada.

iago and Rule, you say that the guy in the audio clip is not credible but what makes you guys more credible than he is?

iago you said that "It's totally biased, there's nothing true about what he says." Can you dispute everything he is saying with facts? If it's not true than prove him wrong.

Rule, you can call him stupid and you can say that I am less intelligent than you thought I was (even though I don't understand what I said that would make you think that) but that will not make you any more credible than the Canadian in the audio clip.

Also I never brought anything up about my country being better than yours; you accuse me of something I have not done.

[Rule]

My post was not about U.S. being better than Canada or vice versa. My post was about Canada being too liberal. If fact so liberal that it blames U.S. for its problems, attitude like that does not help Canada in any way. I believe that liberalism is harmful to any nation.

Also I never brought anything up about my country being better than yours; you accuse me of something I have not done.

I've seen a lot of threads recently with this sort of superior attitude, and it's quite uncalled for.  One of the main points of that clip seemed to be trying not only to illustrate how supposedly horrible it is in Canada (because of this so-called "leftism"), but to contrast it with the US, which supposedly is so much better.

Re: intelligence comment.  Invert, I don't think you're stupid, which is partly why I was angry that you posted that clip.  I would have been less ticked off had I thought very little of you.  Please don't tell me that you actually think that guy should be taken seriously, or that he is some kind of "proof" as to what Canada is really like, and for whatever reason anyone who happens to be Canadian on this forum should be ignored as a rule, because they "don't want you to know what Canada is really like" (insert horror music).  To me it just seems like flame bait crap.

This brings me to your points on credibility. 

iago and Rule, you say that the guy in the audio clip is not credible but what makes you guys more credible than he is?

Well, I'm sure you can think of a few reasons. 

As far as general impressions go, all we really know about that guy on the radio station is that he has called an obviously biased source, and in the space of 5 minutes indirectly revealed that he has a criminal record and was really stupid for going to the emergency room after getting a "big wad of copper" stuck in himself.

I should hope that you have a better impression of either of us.  If you don't, though, it shouldn't really matter.  You don't need to rely on our "impressions" of Canada, both of us have cited facts from credible sources to counter his points.

His claim #1)  We have a federal tax of 15%
Response:  Not true.  We have a federal tax of 7%, and in some provinces like Alberta, no provincial tax at all.  The maximum provincial tax is 7%.  Therefore we have a maximum sales tax of 14%, and on average, the combined sales tax is much less than this.  Go to http://www.statscan.ca, source: federal government of Canada.

His claim #2) No interest in medicine.
Response: 70% of 1st year science undergrads identify themselves as "pre-med."  (This was from a survey conducted at UBC, McGill, UofT). 

His claim #3) ... because there isn't money in the profession
Response: Again, go to http://www.statscan.ca  .  There you will find the minimum annual incomes of any doctor in Canada.   This information is necessarily public, because Doctors are paid with public money.  On average, a Doctor makes ~$200000/year (~$150000 for general practicioner); would you say there isn't money in this profession?

His claim #4)  Ludicrously high income tax.  (His main complaint seems to be taxes.... interesting, this usually isn't a major issue in elections).
Response:  iago linked a source showing that the average individual pays ~17% income tax.

His claim #5)  Waiting times?
Healthcare in Canada is considered internationally to possibly be the best in the world.....  This guy is a moron.  Obviously it's harder to get "statistics" on waiting times, but there are walk-in clinics everywhere over here.  I've never had to wait longer than 20 minutes to be seen for the most trivial of problems.  If anyone really wanted to verify this, they could try looking up a few walk in clinics, say in Vancouver, and ask them how long they should expect to wait to be seen if they were to drop in.

The only possible way I can see any element to his story being true is if he went to the emergency room for his non-emergency problem.  If he did go to the emergency room (and there's a 99% chance he did because he said he went to a hospital I think?), obviously he didn't see a student doctor (this is another reason I think this guy is stupid -- if you're trying to make the system look bad, at least make up something believable).  I won't bother searching for a source saying, "we don't put student Doctors in the emergency room."  I think this goes without saying.  It would be like trying to find a source saying "we don't give RCMP troopers command of the Canadian army."

[iago]

The only possible way I can see any element to his story being true is if he went to the emergency room for his non-emergency problem.  If he did go to the emergency room (and there's a 99% chance he did because he said he went to a hospital I think?), obviously he didn't see a student doctor (this is another reason I think this guy is stupid -- if you're trying to make the system look bad, at least make up something believable).  I won't bother searching for a source saying, "we don't put student Doctors in the emergency room."  I think this goes without saying.  It would be like trying to find a source saying "we don't give RCMP troopers command of the Canadian army."

Well, if some idiot walked into the emegency room with a piece of copper stuck to his finger, I could see them getting the janitor to pull it out.  Why waste perfectly good medical staff?

[CrAz3D]

Thye whole "interest in medicine" thing can't be because they're in it for the money.  $150,000 isn't much.
Also, 1st year undergrads?...Most people change their minds about their major before they graduate.

Canada is not the best healthcare system in the world by far.
& I'm quite sure you'd be able to find student doctors in the ER room.  They're everywhere trainning

[Rule]

Thye whole "interest in medicine" thing can't be because they're in it for the money.  $150,000 isn't much.
Also, 1st year undergrads?...Most people change their minds about their major before they graduate.

Canada is not the best healthcare system in the world by far.
& I'm quite sure you'd be able to find student doctors in the ER room.  They're everywhere trainning

Um, yeah, it's much better than in the US.  How on earth would you know how good Canada's healthcare system is?  You don't even know that we have a Prime Minister and not a President, that we became an independent Country in 1867 (Canada Day), not 1982, and that in 1982 the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was implemented.  Also, you don't know how our electoral system works, you didn't know who our Prime Minister was, you don't know what our taxes are like, you probably couldn't even name the capital of Canada.  I repeat my question, how on earth would you know anything about Canada's healthcare system?  You seem to like to talk about a lot of things
you know nothing about, usually with an aggressive/patriotic twist.

You'd be able to find students in the emergency room, but not operating.  Stop being particularly dense on purpose.

Also, $150000/year over here can go pretty far, I don't know about over there though.  And that's really a minimum annual salary.  If you work hard as a Doctor here, you can make over $300000/year.

Yeah, I'm sure 70% of 4th year undergrads don't identify themselves as pre-med anymore.  But 70% in 1st year is absolutely huge -- regardless of whether all of them decide to apply or not (when you think of all the professions to choose from, and that 70% of 1st year students want one particular one? obviously it's significantly more popular than anything else -- like law).


Edit:  That guy also claimed that the reason drugs are cheaper in Canada is because all the research and development is done in the US, by companies like Merck.  Actually, most of the drug companies are European and do their research in Europe -- Pfizer, Wyeth, etc.  Merck, the one he mentioned as a US drug company, has its headquarters (and R&D headquarters) in Darmstadt, Germany:
http://www.merck.de/servlet/PB/menu/1069470/.

[CrAz3D]

TV specials, as I recall

Quebec is almost commuistic in their views of healthcare outlawing pritization, as I read.  That seems sorta gay

[iago]

I was doing some research, and there's one small slip-up in your post, Rule:

His claim #1)  We have a federal tax of 15%
Response:  Not true.  We have a federal tax of 7%, and in some provinces like Alberta, no provincial tax at all.  The maximum provincial tax is 7%.  Therefore we have a maximum sales tax of 14%, and on average, the combined sales tax is much less than this.  Go to http://www.statscan.ca, source: federal government of Canada.

Unless this Wikipedia article is wrong (which is possible),
- NB, NFL, and NS = 15% sales tax (PST and GST were combined)
- ON has 8% PST = 15%
- PQ has 8.025% PST (7%, compounded with GST for some reason) = 15.025%
- PEI has 10.7% PST (10%, compounded with GST) = 17.7%

PEI is understandable, because their economy  has suffered badly in the last few years, since it's based on fishing and they haven't been able to do much of that, so I can see why they have to raise tax. 

Other than that, the rest of your facts check out as far as I can tell. 

TV specials, as I recall

Quebec is almost commuistic in their views of healthcare outlawing pritization, as I read.  That seems sorta gay

Actually, that's completely backwards.  Quebec is the only province that allows privitized health care.  They don't make a big deal out of it, like they did in Alberta when they (almost?) introduced two-teir healthcare.  But in Quebec, there are paid clinics where you can have operations done.  So, unless my sources are wrong (I don't have anything I'm allowed to cite, it's information we discussed while I worked in government), yours are.