Worry when your king says ...

[iago]

This sentence is so rigged it hurts:

they answered the call and rose to defend our great nation.

there are 3 separate things within that short sentence part that are meant to elicit emotional response, but that have no substance ("answered the call!" "rose to defend!" "our great nation!").  They are meaningless in an argument, other than to toy with people's emotions.  That's not something that should be done in a debate, because people who are thinking about it realize that those types of words lack substance. 

Those are great examples of the kinds of phrases that politicians use to manipulate people who don't think for themselves. 

[Arta]

Here here.

[Invert]

I find it disturbing that Grok writes that he is going to educate us yet his education is bias and full of emotion. Example being that he points the finger and all the blame on one man where that man was only allowed to do what the majority of the people in the United States told him to do, that is how our government works.

Grok writes that the President of the United States sent us to war where in fact the President of the United States has no such power without the authority of the Senate.

The senators that represent you voted to send the troops to Iraq 77-23. Their votes represented the majority of the people who wanted our government to wage war on Iraq.

Recently we had a vote in the House for a nonbinding resolution calling for an immediate troop withdrawal, that resolution failed 403-3.


You are not we; the majority of the people in this country support the war effort in Iraq and support our troops that support the war effort.


Grok: I am no longer in the Army my PCS date was 05 January 2005, almost a year since I've been a free man.

[iago]

The senators that represent you voted to send the troops to Iraq 77-23. Their votes represented the majority of the people who wanted our government to wage war on Iraq.

It's unfortunate that people are so easily influenced by lies.  Well before you went to war, people here (in Canada) were talking about how bogus it was.  It was well known that what your citizens were being told (about WMD, Terrorists in Iraq, etc) were blatent lies.  And look where we are now?  They're acting surprised that attacking Iraq was a mistake!  Maybe your citizens should have been thinking of that instead of vandalizing Canadian cars (because Canada refused to go to a war based on lies)?

[hismajesty]

Grok, I fully understand your argument, as do I understand what policy and emotions are. I fullheartedly agree with the implemented policy, and I myself would be willing to die for it. The path of a military man isn't what I want for myself, and I don't feel as if it'd be best suited for me, but it has crossed my mind (specifically the Air Force) many many times and I hold those who hold that sort of position in high regard. I'm totally for the preserving (or creating) of Democracy in the world, and I beleive Iraq is a great place that needs it done. So, yes, I think that in order to "support our troops" you should, even if you don't agree with what they're doing, respect what they're doing. There are far too many left-wing organizations (freerepublic for one) that are saying (and I read an entire thing on this) basically "forget the troops, let them die" (and the death part isn't an exaggeration) and I can't stand that kind of talk. Many (not all) of our troops agree with the cause too, why do you think the Republican party was worried when there was speculation that the military votes wouldn't get back in time for the election last year? And why do you think the soldiers interviewed are always saying how they feel for the cause and how they like helping the children and all of that?

I personally feel it is blantantly disrespectful to go out like people do and call our Commander in Chief a murderer, call our troops murders, and just generally disrespect them in protests by stomping on/burning the American flag, etc. Especially since it's our men that are dying and their parents that are watching them. It literally sickens me that people that my countrymen can basically degrade those that keep them free and protect the American values. Because frankly, I don't think most of these outspoken liberal nuts could survive in some other countries, and they're fortunate they live where they do. One big example that just popped into my mind is Pre-War Iraq.

[iago]

There's just one point I'm curious about:

And why do you think the soldiers interviewed are always saying how they feel for the cause and how they like helping the children and all of that?

Who is interviewing them?  Is it a random sample, or are they only playing interviews which will further their agenda?  Just curious where you get these facts from, because, traditionally, interviewing people is a very bad way of gleaning information about what's going on. 

[hismajesty]

There's just one point I'm curious about:

And why do you think the soldiers interviewed are always saying how they feel for the cause and how they like helping the children and all of that?

Who is interviewing them? Is it a random sample, or are they only playing interviews which will further their agenda? Just curious where you get these facts from, because, traditionally, interviewing people is a very bad way of gleaning information about what's going on.

You know, on CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc.

[iago]

There's just one point I'm curious about:

And why do you think the soldiers interviewed are always saying how they feel for the cause and how they like helping the children and all of that?

Who is interviewing them? Is it a random sample, or are they only playing interviews which will further their agenda? Just curious where you get these facts from, because, traditionally, interviewing people is a very bad way of gleaning information about what's going on.

You know, on CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc.

I can't say I trust American (or Canadian) news sources.. international ones for the win

[Invert]

There's just one point I'm curious about:

And why do you think the soldiers interviewed are always saying how they feel for the cause and how they like helping the children and all of that?

Who is interviewing them?  Is it a random sample, or are they only playing interviews which will further their agenda?  Just curious where you get these facts from, because, traditionally, interviewing people is a very bad way of gleaning information about what's going on. 

I served in the Army during the war in Iraq in a battalion that has over 1,000 infantry soldiers. They truly believe that what they are doing is the right thing and that they are for the war in Iraq. The unit that I served with is currently in Iraq and I get some e-mails from a few of my friends from Iraq that they support the war and believe in what they are doing.

[iago]

This is a perfect example of the double standard. When I use personal attacks everyone shits a brick. When someone else uses a personal attack that has the same point of view as you I get a "stop whining" comment.

There is no way to have a good political discussion on these forums when it's run by someone who is bias.

I was saying to you exactly what you insulted me for. 

Plus, you still haven't given a better definition. 

I served in the Army during the war in Iraq in a battalion that has over 1,000 infantry soldiers. They truly believe that what they are doing is the right thing and that they are for the war in Iraq. The unit that I served with is currently in Iraq and I get some e-mails from a few of my friends from Iraq that they support the war and believe in what they are doing.

That's a much better source, thanks for providing it.  I have nothing more to say on how the soldiers themselves feel.

[Invert]

The senators that represent you voted to send the troops to Iraq 77-23. Their votes represented the majority of the people who wanted our government to wage war on Iraq.

It's unfortunate that people are so easily influenced by lies.  Well before you went to war, people here (in Canada) were talking about how bogus it was.  It was well known that what your citizens were being told (about WMD, Terrorists in Iraq, etc) were blatent lies.  And look where we are now?  They're acting surprised that attacking Iraq was a mistake!  Maybe your citizens should have been thinking of that instead of vandalizing Canadian cars (because Canada refused to go to a war based on lies)?

Your comment has no merit because you ignored the rest of my post, specifically the part where I mention that we recently (Nov. 19, 2005) had a vote in the House for a nonbinding resolution calling for an immediate troop withdrawal and that resolution failed 403-3.

The majority voted for the troops to remain in Iraq. If the majority believed it was a mistake they would have voted to pull out.

[Arta]

I get some e-mails from a few of my friends from Iraq that they support the war and believe in what they are doing.

I'm sure they, and many others, do. I'm equally sure that many don't. Without a properly conducted poll, we really can't say. I agree that interviews are a fairly useless way to gauge prevailing opinion.

[Arta]

So, yes, I think that in order to "support our troops" you should, even if you don't agree with what they're doing, respect what they're doing.

I mostly agree with that. I agree that our servicemen deserve respect for their willingness to serve, but I don't agree with their actions in Iraq. I think that these things are quite distinct from each other. My dislike of their actions in Iraq doesn't mean that I disrespect them -- they are soldiers, and their actions are generally not their responsibility, from a policy perspective.

I agree that to have some respect for servicemen is important, and from that perspective, I do 'support' them. I do not agree that said respect obligates one to approve of their actions.

There are far too many left-wing organizations ... that are saying ... "forget the troops, let them die" ...

That's clearly reprehensible, and those people are clearly on the extreme fringe of the left wing. I remind you that the extreme right wing is equally as disgraceful. To lump extremists in with normal people and label them all wrong isn't really a valid argument.

I personally feel it is blantantly disrespectful to go out like people do and call our Commander in Chief a murderer ...

I disagree with your implication that our leaders automatically deserve our respect. I do not respect George W. Bush. I do not respect Tony Blair. I think their actions in Iraq are deplorable. I would not call them murderers, but I would call them people who have instigated a chain of events that has lead to a lot of loss of life for no good reason. I think they are wholly deserving our reproach.

[iago]

The senators that represent you voted to send the troops to Iraq 77-23. Their votes represented the majority of the people who wanted our government to wage war on Iraq.

It's unfortunate that people are so easily influenced by lies.  Well before you went to war, people here (in Canada) were talking about how bogus it was.  It was well known that what your citizens were being told (about WMD, Terrorists in Iraq, etc) were blatent lies.  And look where we are now?  They're acting surprised that attacking Iraq was a mistake!  Maybe your citizens should have been thinking of that instead of vandalizing Canadian cars (because Canada refused to go to a war based on lies)?

Your comment has no merit because you ignored the rest of my post, specifically the part where I mention that we recently (Nov. 19, 2005) had a vote in the House for a nonbinding resolution calling for an immediate troop withdrawal and that resolution failed 403-3.

The majority voted for the troops to remain in Iraq. If the majority believed it was a mistake they would have voted to pull out.

Didn't I read somewhere that that vote set up to fail?

In any case, I don't support withdrawing now.  I thought going into the war was a dumb idea, and it was.  But now that you've committed to it, you're stuck running another country until it's ready to be self-governed (how long do we figure that'll take? ever?)

[CrAz3D]

That vote was started by the leading democrat that is against the war, IIRC.
Also, that vote just shows HOW NO ONE believes that we can leave now & let that country fall further apart from where it was before we went in.  Iraq is well on its way to being a full functiong country that doesn't opress & slaughter its own citizens