USA says: We do not torture, do not make it illegal!

[MyndFyre]

This also means that you should not be upset when the other side is doing it. I.e. when American soldiers are captured and tortured, do not make an outcry. It is just a legitimate, expected business that will happen to those who choose to join a war.

No.  I don't think it's legitimate or expected business.  They made it the practice.  We did not.

Yeah, I know, right, Fuck the Geneva Convention.  We don't need any rules for organized war! [/sarcasm]

To try saddamm hussien for autrocitys and warcrimes seems a little hypocritical if we are going to allow our own troops to torture people...

Yes.  Torturing a few people who might have valuable information (especially that torture of making people wear their underwear on their heads!) is easily comparable to slaughtering millions.  I can see that.

And as far as the Geneva Convention goes: 1.) it's not entirely ratified by the US, and 2.) it's retarded anyway.  If the Geneva Convention had been in place, the US would have NEVER won independence from Britain.  It talks about requirements of wearing uniforms in battle and not fighting from civilian-populated places.  What are we going to do when people are not wearing uniforms - dressed like civilians pulling out an automatic rifle and mowing down our guys when we're not even fighting?  What about when they hide out in a mosque and shoot at us through the windows?  One of the greatest things about the American war machine is that we are a precision machine.  We work hard to avoid civilian casualties and to avoid destroying property.

The Geneva Convention is great for the lesser power in a two-way war.  The Geneva Convention sucks balls for the greater power.  Give me time to find a reference.

Is there nothing to be said for leading by example?

I don't know, Arta.  I've always been taught to lead by example.  The problem is, we're the West.  We're infidels.  They shouldn't follow our example!  Everything Western is hated and against Allah.  (I am talking of radical Islam). 

It would be great if we could lead by example, but we wouldn't even be in a war on terror if we could.

[Arta]

How else do you propose to extract information from terrorists? Offer them tea and biscuits?

I don't know. I will say, however, that information gained from torture is not information upon which we can rely. A person being tortured will say anything.

I don't know, Arta.  I've always been taught to lead by example.  The problem is, we're the West.  We're infidels.  They shouldn't follow our example!  Everything Western is hated and against Allah.  (I am talking of radical Islam). 

It would be great if we could lead by example, but we wouldn't even be in a war on terror if we could.

Well, that just brings us back to the question of whether or not the war is necessary. I argue that it's not, but that's a different topic. I'd also point out that I don't think people will aspire to our way of life just because we say so. I'm not saying that leading by example is a realistic solution to the problem of fundamentalism and terrorism. I'm just saying that if we don't lead by example, we loose all credibility.

[CrAz3D]

Capturing & stopping terrorists is not necessary?

[Grok]

We have said that we are for freedom of speech, freedom from fear, freedom from tyranny.

DAMN Arta, I am afraid to speak freely, in constant fear of our government gone nuts, and our people are under the tyranny of the US government.  Can I move to your country where you are free from those things?

1)  My street is a dangerous place, to find out what I need to know, I can legally torture my neighbors.

2)  OK so you are I am not qualified to torture someone.  Who is?

3)  But the people I'm torturing are innocent.  Who is not innocent?

4)  A suspected person in our system of justice is presupposed innocent until proven guilty.  You want to torture de facto innocent people?

5)  What if you are suspected and tortured, do you support it now?

A lot of the opinions I see from younger people, on these forums as well as in real life, really scare me.  Their lack of understanding and respect for the ideals on which this country is founded is giving the government the power to increase tyranny and opporession.  What I knew as America as recently as in the 1970s is no more.  People are jailed for speech, jailed for debt, jailed for not volunteering to pay taxes, jailed, jailed, jailed.  The "most civilized country in the world" has the highest incarceration rate per capita of any civilized industrialed nation.  We have 2.5% of our population in jail on any given day.  I have no idea how many citizens have ever served time but I wouldn't be surprised at 40% or higher.

The younger people in the US think they live in a free country.  They are so clueless that I wouldn't know where to begin educating them.  They believe torture is OK.  They believe once we have invaded a country, even if our premise is wrong, hey, we should stay there because if we leave then blah blah blah.  They "support our leaders".  WTF?  They "support our troops".  Again, WTF is that?  Amerika is WRONG to be in Iraq even if Suddam Hussein was a sadistic brute.

I could go on and on, and want to, but do not have the time.  I'm also rather fearful of any speech on my part not being free under our current "regime" in the White House.

[Arta]

Hear hear.

[Grok]

YOUNG PEOPLE ... before it's too late ... please read:

http://www.sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml

[Invert]

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

[Arta]

What a ridiculous thing to say.

[Falcon[anti-yL]]

The US should stop contradicting itself, claiming that we don't torture and then passing a law that forbids torture, how retarded is that? They need to stop lying to their own people.

[Grok]

No you're missing it entirely.  The White House is saying we do not torture, and simultaneously threatening to veto anything that outlaws torture.

[CrAz3D]

I like Constitutionalists.  I believe Justice Scalia is that one that doesn't believe in the "living Constitution".  I spose we need a MORE conservative government, on that is ACTUALLT conservative, to revert back to smaller government, less involvement, and more focus on what was set out before us back when.

[MyndFyre]

I like Constitutionalists.  I believe Justice Scalia is that one that doesn't believe in the "living Constitution".  I spose we need a MORE conservative government, on that is ACTUALLT conservative, to revert back to smaller government, less involvement, and more focus on what was set out before us back when.

/signed and /signed

[Zorm]

I think there really needs to be a better definition of terms here.

Torture can be defined many ways. To me its torture if you're holding a persons fingers while asking him a question and then proceed to break them when he doesn't answer the way you want.

Making a person wear underwear on their head or stand for hours on the other hand is not torture. Jail isn't suppose to be fun or a walk in the park. It should be uncomfortable and such, otherwise what is there to fear?

The bill is banning the second kind of 'torture' listed here. Clearly the White House feels it is a needed technique and will veteo the bill.

You'll notice that there have been a few cases of real torture in isolated incidents. Of course these aren't all over the news because of the fact that the U.S. soldiers responsible were held accountable and punished. The media would never cover an event that makes the U.S./Bush look decent.

[iago]

The media would never cover an event that makes the U.S./Bush look decent.

Really?  Or are you just trying to totally deny the credibility of any news source?  Sounds like a good way of proving a statement, making any source of information uncredible, what are we left with?

And to Grok and Arta: Very well put! 

[Zorm]

Really?  Or are you just trying to totally deny the credibility of any news source?  Sounds like a good way of proving a statement, making any source of information uncredible, what are we left with?

Pretty much. Its rare to see a news source that gives both sides of any story. If they aren't going to give the full story then they aren't really all that credible in the first place.