Welfare

[Arta]

I agree a bit, but not completely. You guys seem to think that all poor people are just lazy, and I don't think that's true. I'd imagine your perspective would change somewhat if you were a deeply in debt middle-aged single mother with 6 children. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have personal responsibility - but I think some people need a helping hand, and that's ok.

[Invert]

I agree a bit, but not completely. You guys seem to think that all poor people are just lazy, and I don't think that's true. I'd imagine your perspective would change somewhat if you were a deeply in debt middle-aged single mother with 6 children. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have personal responsibility - but I think some people need a helping hand, and that's ok.

In your example that woman must have done something to put herself in that situation, it did not just happen. I agree that some people need help and that helping another person is a good thing. I just don't agree with helping someone by giving them free money. I believe in helping people help themselves and that it is the only kind of help that is worth anything.

[hismajesty]

I agree, sometimes throwing money at something isn't the solution. Just look at the poor countries overseas, the US+Allies give them money all the time, but they're still poor, it obviously isn't working. It's like the old saying (by memory, probably not exact wording): Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach the man to fish, and he'll eat for life.

[Topaz]

Which is the perfect example to tell Congress to stop providing foreign aid. We'd save billions of dollars.

[Arta]

Of course welfare should be focussed on helping people get back on their feet. I think most welfare is - it certainly is here.

In fact, welfare here is a pittance. It's a joke. It's not remotely enough to live on, let alone support children with. My family were quite poor when I was a teenager: we should have had more. Both my parents were doing their utmost to support us, but it's sometimes very difficult to make ends meet. In that kind of situation, it's in the interests of society to help people enough that they can live reasonably. It's all very well to say that 'people put themselves in their situation', and it may sometimes be true, but it's also trite and irrelevant -- not to mention callous.

The fact is, some people are in bad situations -- by whatever cause -- and none of us can wind back the clock. Not everybody can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. There comes a point where to expect someone to pull themselves out of poverty is unrealistic. I think that a middle-aged indebted single mother with 6 children might very well qualify.

Which is the perfect example to tell Congress to stop providing foreign aid. We'd save billions of dollars.

Yes. And the rest of the world would rightly call you selfish assholes: driving SUVs and eating beefburgers while 75% of the world's people live in abject poverty. Wake up.

[Invert]

(Imagines Arta saying all he wrote with an English accent)

Arta, a lot of people take advantage of welfare here in the United States. It's a bad program the way it's set up.


Let's not make this a political discussion. Not the right place. <- (before the post was moved)

[dxoigmn]

Arta, a lot of people take advantage of welfare here in the United States. It's a bad program the way it's set up.

Do you have facts to back that up? I very much doubt you even know how "welfare" works in this country.

[Arta]

(Imagines Arta saying all he wrote with an English accent)


...

Let's not make this a political discussion. Not the right place.

lol

Feel free to split and move into politics It's a good topic.

[hismajesty]

When welfare was started, it was a temporary thing for people who had been laid off...just enough so they could get by until they found work. However, as years progress, it's become a lifestyle. People in America take advantage of it greatly, and it lasts for generations. A lot of times people on welfare will be driving expensive cars and wearing designer clothes, which sickens me. Children think that it is OK to be on welfare, and they brag about it (at least my school, I've seen) - I'd personally be incredibly ashamed. So, chances are, they'll be on welfare when they grow up, and so will their kids, and it just continues. Welfare is in need of serious reform.

[Soul Taker]

I agree a bit, but not completely. You guys seem to think that all poor people are just lazy, and I don't think that's true. I'd imagine your perspective would change somewhat if you were a deeply in debt middle-aged single mother with 6 children. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have personal responsibility - but I think some people need a helping hand, and that's ok.

In your example that woman must have done something to put herself in that situation, it did not just happen. I agree that some people need help and that helping another person is a good thing. I just don't agree with helping someone by giving them free money. I believe in helping people help themselves and that it is the only kind of help that is worth anything.

It can just happen.  What if her husband just died and left her a large debt to pay due to inadequate insurance?  What if her kids have some terrible medical affliction and are costing her tens of thousands of dollars every few months to help them?  According to 30 Days, about 46,000 Americans live below the poverty line.  That's worse than the people who just abuse welfare.  That's the serious people that need the help and usually can't even get it from welfare anyway.

[dxoigmn]

When welfare was started, it was a temporary thing for people who had been laid off...just enough so they could get by until they found work. However, as years progress, it's become a lifestyle. People in America take advantage of it greatly, and it lasts for generations. A lot of times people on welfare will be driving expensive cars and wearing designer clothes, which sickens me. Children think that it is OK to be on welfare, and they brag about it (at least my school, I've seen) - I'd personally be incredibly ashamed. So, chances are, they'll be on welfare when they grow up, and so will their kids, and it just continues. Welfare is in need of serious reform.

"Welfare" has already been reformed. TANF (what you guys probably consider welfare aka "free money") is temporary, hence it's name Temporary Assistance for Needy Families. Get your facts straight.

[hismajesty]

"Welfare" was temporary when it was started in the 30's(?). So, if TANF is temporary, and welfare has been reformed, how is all the abuse happening, since you're so informed.

Soul Taker: 46,000 out of 295,734,134 is imho, pretty good.

[dxoigmn]

"Welfare" was temporary when it was started in the 30's(?). So, if TANF is temporary, and welfare has been reformed, how is all the abuse happening, since you're so informed.

I don't think the abuse is happening, since I'm so informed (informed because I like to read instead of basing my opinions on limited observations aka bad science). There may be some abuse but it is as wide spread as you and Invert make it out to be. You can point out examples of some kids as schooling saying "welfare" is cool but you don't know if they're on welfare or not. It is pure speculation with no basis, and thus WRONG. Your argument is similar to me saying: Because I can walk down the street and see a lot of mexicans and blacks, this country must be mostly mexican and blacks. The fact is, though, this country is mostly white.


Edit: Also concerning Soul Taker's numbers, they don't seem right. Checking wikipedia reveals the number of people living in poverty to be 37 million, 12.7% of the country. Good? Not for a so-called "christian" nation.

[Invert]

No, you are not well informed. You don't even understand. The abuse lies in what people do with it and not who gets it. The problem is with the people that get it and not doing anything about it to get off the system. Here they are all poor and broke (their own doing) and here comes Uncle Sam with FREE MONEY! What idiot would refuse? Welfare does not work and will never work unless it's regulated in a way where people are monitored what they spend that money on. So we no longer get any of this "Oh shit, it's the 1st of the month my check is here, I can't wait to go get some liquor and crack"

That is my fucking tax money!

Just for reference here is a welfare fact:
Largest cause of getting on welfare is creation of a fatherless family by birth or separation.

And we all know what group of people in the U.S. lead the statistics for creating fatherless families.

[dxoigmn]

No, you are not well informed. You don't even understand. The abuse lies in what people do with it and not who gets it. The problem is with the people that get it and not doing anything about it to get off the system.

If you're receiving TANF, you must be looking for a job or currently employed. That is a provision of TANF. Otherwise, no TANF for them. And there are people who actively make sure those on TANF are trying to get a job (I've seen it and know it).

Here they are all poor and broke (their own doing) and here comes Uncle Sam with FREE MONEY! What idiot would refuse? Welfare does not work and will never work unless it's regulated in a way where people are monitored what they spend that money on. So we no longer get any of this "Oh shit, it's the 1st of the month my check is here, I can't wait to go get some liquor and crack"

Their own doing? Is this what you say to the people who are out because of the hurricane? That's pretty heartless. But once again, this is all baseless speculation by someone who doesn't really know. You're entiring argument is resting upon your limited observations. If you're hanging around people on welfare who buy crack and liquor with that money, THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Report them. But you won't, because you don't actually know anyone like that!

That is my fucking tax money!

Boo hoo. Only something like 10% of money dedicated to "welfare" goes to TANF. Most of it goes to medicaid (> 50%). And the rest goes towards people with disabilities and food stamps.

Just for reference here is a welfare fact:
Largest cause of getting on welfare is creation of a fatherless family by birth or separation.

And we all know what group of people in the U.S. lead the statistics for creating fatherless families.

I dunno. What "group of people" are you talking about?