Split off gun debate

[Arta]

The gray area is in the first half of the amendment that you didn't include in your post.

[Grok]

Read the words: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Where is the grey area?

If I am reading correctlly, I see what Arta is saying here, and what you posted confirms it.  The right of the people to bear arms is not granted in the Constitution.  Rather, the right of the government to remove that right IS specifically removed by the 2nd amendment.  It's a big distinction, not at all subtle.  The 2nd amendment implies that the right to bear arms is a given, and that even if the government were thinking about it, "let's add this amendment to make sure the government never trods on our arms bearing rights".

[hismajesty]

Amendment X of the United States Constituion:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constiitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

No state has banned guns, the people have no banned guns. Why? Because they're an integral part of American culture.

(This was the first time I've used my pocket Constitution in a debate. )

[Hazard]

The gray area is in the first half of the amendment that you didn't include in your post.

The other part is a statement about the state's rights to have and mantain a guard.

[Hazard]

Read the words: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Where is the grey area?

If I am reading correctlly, I see what Arta is saying here, and what you posted confirms it.  The right of the people to bear arms is not granted in the Constitution.  Rather, the right of the government to remove that right IS specifically removed by the 2nd amendment.  It's a big distinction, not at all subtle.  The 2nd amendment implies that the right to bear arms is a given, and that even if the government were thinking about it, "let's add this amendment to make sure the government never trods on our arms bearing rights".

And when I, and when Chief Justice Rehnquist read it, we see that the people a) have the right and b) that it cannot be infringed upon by the government.

[Grok]

Five hunters shot, apparently by another hunter.

This has nothing to do with gun control, since these are likely hunting rifles, but it goes to show that no matter how armed you are, the aggressor can assume you are armed and kill you before you can defend yourself with your weapon.

[Hazard]

Totally unrelated to the discussion.

[MyndFyre]

The thing is, if people really, really want guns, they will get them, whether or not they are legally allowed into the country, and whether or not people can legally own them.

Prohibition is a great example.  What happened when people could no longer legally buy alcohol?  An entire black market of alcohol production and sales popped up.  It's a good reason to legalize narcotics (legal -> supply increases -> street value decreases -> no motivation to sell for street dealers -> large companies sell -> harmful effects reduced to avoid liability).

[Adron]

The thing is, if people really, really want guns, they will get them, whether or not they are legally allowed into the country, and whether or not people can legally own them.

Ah, yes. That's true about everything. But there's a balance between how difficult it is to get something and how much you must desire it to go to the trouble of obtaining it. If that wasn't true, why not allow everyone to have their own nuke, or other WMD?

Prohibition is a great example.  What happened when people could no longer legally buy alcohol?  An entire black market of alcohol production and sales popped up.  It's a good reason to legalize narcotics (legal -> supply increases -> street value decreases -> no motivation to sell for street dealers -> large companies sell -> harmful effects reduced to avoid liability).

Following this could lead to an interesting discussion... What was the narcotics market like when alcohol was prohibited? Do the resources just move around? If we legalize some drugs, will there be new illegal drugs taking up the same market share?

We have a "black market" for tobacco here, untaxed tobacco...