Split off gun debate

[Arta]

I really hope you're not going to make me find statistics to support the obvious, but here's what my argument boils down to:

Countries with gun control: less gun deaths/injuries
Countries without gun control: more gun deaths/injuries

Increased gun control in the US would undoubtedly make things worse in the short term, but would far improve things in the long term.

[Hazard]

I really hope you're not going to make me find statistics to support the obvious, but here's what my argument boils down to:

Countries with gun control: less gun deaths/injuries
Countries without gun control: more gun deaths/injuries

Increased gun control in the US would undoubtedly make things worse in the short term, but would far improve things in the long term.

Find your proof.

Facist Germany and Italy had total gun control in the late 1930's and early 1940's... and I think its safe to say that those countries weren't much safer.

[muert0]

So the common man was killing his fellow man in fascist Germany? I think it was the soldiers killing the commoners so how does that support your arguement. Do you really have to stretch that far to counter his point?

[Hazard]

So the common man was killing his fellow man in fascist Germany? I think it was the soldiers killing the commoners so how does that support your arguement. Do you really have to stretch that far to counter his point?

No, I was referring to the violent crime of the citizen anti-semites against the Jews, their fellow German citizens. Look it up.

[Arta]

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

                             Homicide                Suicide            Unintentional

USA                       4.08 (1999)               6.08 (1999)         0.42 (1999)
Canada                  0.54 (1999)              2.65 (1997)         0.15 (1997)
Switzerland           0.50 (1999)               5.78 (1998)          -
Scotland                0.12 (1999)               0.27 (1999)           -
England/Wales      0.12 (1999/00)           0.22 (1999)        0.01 (1999)
Japan                    0.04* (1998)              0.04 (1995)       <0.01 (1997)

* Homicide & attempted homicide by handgun

Data collected by Philip Alpers, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and HELP Network

[Hazard]

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

                             Homicide                Suicide            Unintentional

USA                       4.08 (1999)               6.08 (1999)         0.42 (1999)
Canada                  0.54 (1999)              2.65 (1997)         0.15 (1997)
Switzerland           0.50 (1999)               5.78 (1998)          -
Scotland                0.12 (1999)               0.27 (1999)           -
England/Wales      0.12 (1999/00)           0.22 (1999)        0.01 (1999)
Japan                    0.04* (1998)              0.04 (1995)       <0.01 (1997)

* Homicide & attempted homicide by handgun

Data collected by Philip Alpers, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and HELP Network

What are we comparing the data to? What were the stats for those countries before the gun bans?

[Arta]

AFAIK, the UK has had gun control laws since the 19th century, so I don't know if meaningful statistics even exist on that point.

Either way, I will now leave the majority of this debate to Adron. I find it patently obvious that gun control is better than no gun control, and, to be honest: I don't care if you agree with me or not, and I can't really be bothered to dig around for more statistics anyway. Let's just agree to disagree. I'll leave this debate now for people who are more interested in it.

[Adron]

So the common man was killing his fellow man in fascist Germany? I think it was the soldiers killing the commoners so how does that support your arguement. Do you really have to stretch that far to counter his point?

No, I was referring to the violent crime of the citizen anti-semites against the Jews, their fellow German citizens. Look it up.

Not relevant. The state wanted to do that against jews. That would be like referring to the violent "crimes" committed by white slave-owners against slaves in old America as a reason for gun control laws.

[Hazard]

Everything that could fracture your argument you call irrelevant.

[Adron]

Everything that could fracture your argument you call irrelevant.

That was actually Arta's post you'd replied to. You haven't replied to my numbered listing. But I really can't see how damage done to jews in nazi germany is relevant to the question of whether guns increase or reduce crime? It seems just like counting the number of killed or injured slaves in America..

Still, the crime level in nazi germany would be interesting to know more about. Do you have any link to numbers for say, people killed per year in armed robberies in nazi germany?

[Grok]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/11/05/mexico.priest.reut/index.html

Gallegos is wildly popular with parishioners but has angered his Catholic superiors with his habit of wearing a shiny pistol beneath his robes, despite strict laws in Mexico banning private citizens from carrying guns.

Also known for his love of cowboy boots and country music, Gallegos says he only carries a gun for protection, noting several of his friends have been killed over the years.

If Mexico has strict anti-gun laws, why are guns freely available?  Adron?  Apparently death by gun is prevelant enough that a priest has to carry a weapon because several of his friends were shot.  Doesn't sound too isolated.

[hismajesty]

* hismajesty[yL] notes the size of the US compared to countries such as Switzerland

[Mephisto]

Isn't the statistic like 90% of the time or so that if a criminal invades your home and you try to use a gun to defend yourself that it's 90% likely to be turned against you?

[Arta]

I'm not sure if those numbers are right but the principle is. Also that a gun bought for self-defence is 22 times more likely to be used to injure or kill a family member than to fend of an invader:

A 1998 study from the Journal of Trauma, Injury and Critical Care shows that guns kept in the home are 22 times more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting than be used for self defense.

Kellerman AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, et al. "Injuries and Deaths Due To Firearms in the Home." Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection and Critical Care. August 1998. 45:263

I also read something interesting today. There have been 2 cases, Presser v Illinois and United States v Miller, that have established that the 2nd amendment does not enshrine the right for individuals to bear arms. Apparently, these and subsequent federal rulings have established that the right to bear arms is linked to a state milita and that it doesn't confer rights upon individuals. This is the precident that allows the federal government to ban certain firearms without those laws being unconsitutional. It seems to me, given this information, that there is no consitutional basis for objecting to gun control, as long as the rights of an organised militia are preserved...

Note that I haven't read these rulings, I'm just trusting that the American Academy of Pediatrics to tell me the truth.

* Arta[vL] goes back to lurking

[Grok]

I also read something interesting today. There have been 2 cases, Presser v Illinois and United States v Miller, that have established that the 2nd amendment does not enshrine the right for individuals to bear arms. Apparently, these and subsequent federal rulings have established that the right to bear arms is linked to a state milita and that it doesn't confer rights upon individuals. This is the precident that allows the federal government to ban certain firearms without those laws being unconsitutional. It seems to me, given this information, that there is no consitutional basis for objecting to gun control, as long as the rights of an organised militia are preserved...

I'd like to point out that Americans own all rights not granted to the federal government by the Constitution.  That is to say any rights we do not give control of to our government are by default retained by American citizens.  We rule by law, not by government.  No right is given up unless we vote to give it up.