Take your time.

[Arta]

Ok, I accept that it had an intention.

I'm trying to say that not only did it not succeed in its goals, but the very thing it set out to stop never transpired anyway, and in my opinion, it probably never would have done.

[dxoigmn]

Its not purely my own opinion. Its the opinion of many of the men and women who were there.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/campaign2004/a/kerryvietnam.htm

This crap was used as anti us propoganda by the north and it was played in pow camps for the pows to hear. Many have testified to that. I have seen several troop interviews on various news programs about this.

How many people that went to vietname disagree with what Kerry said?  You merely stated some fact without any proof.  And you have not quoted anything in Kerry's speech that "demonized the troops."  Please do, I encourage fact not opinion.
Just because the North used Kerry's speech (which again you have not presented proof of) in POW camps means nothing.  They used it because they could just like Terrorists could use Bush's speechs to incite terrorism.

[quasi-modo]

I have seen several interviews which say that it was used in northern camps. John McCain even testified to that. I did not quote the speach, I posted the whole thing. Take a look at the third page of the copy I posted. If you were called a murderer when you are just trying to do your job wouldn't it bring your spirits down? The fact that the north used Kerry's speeches does mean something. The north were showing that stuff to our men, using it and trying to get the men to claim they are heartless murderers. I fail to see your logic when you say it means nothing.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114
http://www.roadsassy.com/spicedsass/archives/001304.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38535
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040803-123611-2794r
http://www.greenberet.net/kerry/POW-Issue/Intro.html

[dxoigmn]

I have seen several interviews which say that it was used in northern camps. John McCain even testified to that. I did not quote the speach, I posted the whole thing. Take a look at the third page of the copy I posted. If you were called a murderer when you are just trying to do your job wouldn't it bring your spirits down? The fact that the north used Kerry's speeches does mean something. The north were showing that stuff to our men, using it and trying to get the men to claim they are heartless murderers. I fail to see your logic when you say it means nothing.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114
http://www.roadsassy.com/spicedsass/archives/001304.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38535
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040803-123611-2794r
http://www.greenberet.net/kerry/POW-Issue/Intro.html

The third page has nothing on it.  Please quote, it's not so hard to do and I have read his whole speech including questioning.  Kerry spoke out against the war using testimony other troops had said.  The North Vietamese used this against American troops because they could manipulate what Kerry said and thus make it an effective tool.  Now according to the factcheck.org webpage, that commericial about Kerry making those statements also manipulated what Kerry said.  Interesting correlation there.  But thanks for the proof of the North using the speech.  But it doesn't mean anything, Kerry was the victim of manipulators and he shouldn't be held accountable for something he had no control over.

[Adron]

I don't like the whole fact that he gave his speach when he did and the way he did. I do not like how it was used as propoganda by the north vietnamese, even played in pow camps no less, and how it demoralized our troops even more.

He had to give it then for it to have any effect on stopping the war. Wouldn't have been much good to give it after the war had already ended?

And any speech can be cut up and abused. Just look at Bush's speeches....

[quasi-modo]

I don't like the whole fact that he gave his speach when he did and the way he did. I do not like how it was used as propoganda by the north vietnamese, even played in pow camps no less, and how it demoralized our troops even more.

He had to give it then for it to have any effect on stopping the war. Wouldn't have been much good to give it after the war had already ended?

And any speech can be cut up and abused. Just look at Bush's speeches....

But calling our troops murderers is just going to hurt their morality... Blaming it on the government is one thing, but blaming it on the men who are out there fighting for their lives is another.

[quasi-modo]

I have seen several interviews which say that it was used in northern camps. John McCain even testified to that. I did not quote the speach, I posted the whole thing. Take a look at the third page of the copy I posted. If you were called a murderer when you are just trying to do your job wouldn't it bring your spirits down? The fact that the north used Kerry's speeches does mean something. The north were showing that stuff to our men, using it and trying to get the men to claim they are heartless murderers. I fail to see your logic when you say it means nothing.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114
http://www.roadsassy.com/spicedsass/archives/001304.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38535
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040803-123611-2794r
http://www.greenberet.net/kerry/POW-Issue/Intro.html

Please quote, it's not so hard to do and I have read his whole speech including questioning.  Kerry spoke out against the war using testimony other troops had said.  The North Vietamese used this against American troops because they could manipulate what Kerry said and thus make it an effective tool.  Now according to the factcheck.org webpage, that commericial about Kerry making those statements also manipulated what Kerry said.  Interesting correlation there.  But thanks for the proof of the North using the speech.  But it doesn't mean anything, Kerry was the victim of manipulators and he shouldn't be held accountable for something he had no control over.

You want me to quote... eh?

hey told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.

FEELINGS OF MEN COMING BACK FROM VIETNAM

I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned With a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

As a veteran and one who feels this anger, I would like to talk about it. We are angry because we feel we have been used in the worst fashion by the administration of this country.

In 1970 at West Point, Vice President Agnew said "some glamorize the criminal misfits of society while our best men die in Asian rice paddies to preserve the freedom which most of those misfits abuse," and this was used as a rallying point for our effort in Vietnam.

But for us,as boys in Asia whom the country was supposed to support, his statement is a terrible distortion from Which we can only draw a very deep sense of revulsion. Hence the anger of some of the men who are here in Washington today. It is a distortion because we in no way consider ourselves the best men of this country, because those he calls misfits were standing up for us in a way that nobody else in this country dared' to, because so many of us who have died would have returned to this country to join the misfits in their efforts to ask for an immediate withdrawal from South Vietnam, because so many of those best men have returned as quadraplegics and amputees, and they lie forgotten in Veterans' Administration hospitals in this country which fly the flag which so many have chosen as their own personal symbol. And we cannot consider ourselves America's best men when we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We are probably much more angry than that and I don't want to go into the foreign policy aspects because I am outclassed here. I know that all of you talk about every possible alternative of getting out of Vietnam. We understand that. We know you have considered the seriousness of the aspects to the utmost level and I am not going to try to dwell on that, but I want to relate to you the feeling that many of the men who have returned to this country express because we are probably angriest about all that we were told about Vietnam and about the mystical war against communism.

WHAT WAS FOUND AND LEARNED IN VIETNAM

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastially molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

Look at the vast majority of this page... he spends it in a nut shell calling the troops murderers. Even if some of that happened, he is blaming the troops and basically calling them heartless. Saying that the life of another [an asian] is practically meaningless to them. It is not something that should be said about our forces who are fighting for their lives, especially during the war. You can say the war caused casulaties here here and here. This many people here. Some innocents got their heads sawed off here. But to say the troops were killing innocents and did not value their lives is just a horrible thing to say. We wonder why returning troops were spat apon?

[Adron]

Look at the vast majority of this page... he spends it in a nut shell calling the troops murderers. Even if some of that happened, he is blaming the troops and basically calling them heartless. Saying that the life of another [an asian] is practically meaningless to them. It is not something that should be said about our forces who are fighting for their lives, especially during the war. You can say the war caused casulaties here here and here. This many people here. Some innocents got their heads sawed off here. But to say the troops were killing innocents and did not value their lives is just a horrible thing to say. We wonder why returning troops were spat apon?

Hmm.

He quotes what other have talked about in a meeting - not his own statements, not his own opinions, just other quoting what other people have said they've done. It's a bit graphical, but it's quotation. Goes on to speaking about who those were. Motivates why he's speaking, implies that there are crimes being committed in Vietnam (probably referring to the quotes). (is that what you're saying is wrong?)

He mentions the result of teaching young men to kill, how soldiers have their natural limits stretched to be able to kill without hesitation, and the psychological problems this creates with readjustment to normal life.

He points out that they're forced to do hateful things in war, that the war is a waste of time (which it was), and that they don't want to go to war to return in coffins or as cripples. Very natural if you ask me. Basically he says he disagrees with the government on the war, nothing unexpected.

He points out that nothing that could happen in South Vietnam could really threaten the United States, which he's also probably right about. It's a small country far far away, not a strategical point for staging an attack on America. I suppose it's a matter of how much value you assign to something. If you value human life the most, you'd have to compare the number of deaths in Vietnam to the number of expected deaths in America if Vietnam was allowed to go communist. Hmm. Actually I don't see how you could ever justify it. Ohwell.

He goes on to say that they're fighting a war for some people, but that those people themselves don't really want to fight the war. So why should Americans be there fighting it for them?

I can't see him calling anyone a murderer anywhere in that page.

[quasi-modo]

His speach basically lables our forces as being murderous.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

That is not just from the second page. But, he can call the war horrible, bloody, a mistake. But to quote people saying they did this this and this makes them seems like murderers. Then it goes on calling the military its self evil and murderous. The war might have been unsucessful, even a mistake, but I would not blame it on the troops, or the military it's self.

[dxoigmn]

His speach basically lables our forces as being murderous.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

That is not just from the second page. But, he can call the war horrible, bloody, a mistake. But to quote people saying they did this this and this makes them seems like murderers. Then it goes on calling the military its self evil and murderous. The war might have been unsucessful, even a mistake, but I would not blame it on the troops, or the military it's self.

Time out.  He quoted what soldiers voluntarily said, and nothing they said was against their will. 

[quasi-modo]

Yes, but he quoted into the microphones.

[Adron]

Yes, but he quoted into the microphones.

Is it bad to publish the truth? Is that what you're trying to say, if something bad has happened, you must hush it down and never mention it?

[Hazard]

Yes, but he quoted into the microphones.

Is it bad to publish the truth? Is that what you're trying to say, if something bad has happened, you must hush it down and never mention it?

No, its bad to publish things that are taken ridiculously out of context. If I hung around you long enough I could piece together a clip where you'd say you were, in fact, a flaming homosexual having an affair with Prince Charles.

[Adron]

No, its bad to publish things that are taken ridiculously out of context. If I hung around you long enough I could piece together a clip where you'd say you were, in fact, a flaming homosexual having an affair with Prince Charles.

Yes, you could, but I don't think what Kerry said was quotes ridiculously taken out of context. Is that a claim? Do you have anything to back that up? Besides, Kerry wasn't pieceing together a clip of what the veterans in Detroit had said. He was making a speech, summarizing what had been said.