Take your time.

Zakath · October 31, 2004, 05:17 PM

I noted in the edit to my post that I misunderstood what you were saying, but nonetheless I think you're wrong. I can call all the American soldiers trying to help free Iraq criminals if I want to. It certainly doesn't make it true, but I have a Constitutionally protected right to be able to say it. I completely fail to grasp how you can call it anti-American to exercise a Constitutional right.

For the record, I have nothing but the utmost respect for everyone who has fought in Iraq. They've done nothing wrong, they're simply doing what they're told to the best of their ability. It's the people giving those orders that I despise.

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 05:19 PM

You have the right to freedom of speech yes. But I can still hate someone for using that right. Kerry spoke out an called our troops in name criminals, and many hate him for that. He can't be arrested for it, but what he did seems almost treasonous to me.

Zakath · October 31, 2004, 05:26 PM

He believed that the American troops were responsible for countless unnecessary civilian deaths. Whether or not it was true, if you believe that, calling them criminals makes some sense to me. Given that he was there, and I wasn't, I can't really criticize him for it. Which is where I differ from you, I suppose.

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 05:35 PM

He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.

Adron · October 31, 2004, 05:52 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 05:35 PM
He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.

I wasn't in Vietnam, but the way I've understood it is that people looking like civilians there set traps and killed Americans. Not going through and slaughtering everyone on sight would mean risking your life to disguised Viet-Cong. It would make a lot of sense to shoot everything that moves and ask questions later. For that reason, I don't doubt that happened.

You just can't fight a war under those conditions.

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 06:00 PM

None of this changes the fact that Kerry deamonized our troops.

Adron · October 31, 2004, 06:02 PM

Quote from: Hazard on October 31, 2004, 04:32 PM
Kerry wen't to Vietnam and fought, thats true. However I seem to remember YOU saying in another thread that merely going and fighting as you are assigned to do does not make you any sort of hero or dutiful individual.

I'm not saying he was a hero. I'm just saying he wasn't a coward, because a coward wouldn't have done what he did.

Quote from: Hazard on October 31, 2004, 04:32 PM
Bush joined the Air National Guard, as many thousands did and still do. It wasn't an evading of duty. Joining the reserves as opposed to being drafted is not cowardice. Turning tail and fleeing the country to evade the draft is.

Bush didn't go to war. A coward could've done what Bush did. Perhaps Bush is one?

Math example: Assume we have a group of people, consisting of 5% cowards, 90% regulars and 5% heroes. Of these, 90% go to war and 10% stay home. We know that all the cowards stay home, and all the heroes go to war. Given that someone has gone to war, there's then a 5/90 = 5.6% chance of him being a hero. Given that someone has stayed home, there's a 5/10 = 50% chance of him being a coward.

Conclusion: We may not know for sure that someone who stayed at home is a coward, but it's way more likely than for someone who went to the war.

I'd say you should look into Bush's records. I visited some site which claimed that there were things suspect about them. Some unaccounted for period, seeming like he'd slacked off when he was supposed to be on duty.

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 06:59 PM

Oh yeah, wasn't that what got cbs in trouble.

Adron · October 31, 2004, 07:59 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 06:59 PM
Oh yeah, wasn't that what got cbs in trouble.

CBS? No idea.. It was something I read many months ago.

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 08:10 PM

you remember the whole cbs breaking the news about documents about Bush's military past? They turned out to be forged by a flaming lib who just wanted to see bush go down in flames... instead the reputation of cbs and dan rather went down in falems.

Zakath · October 31, 2004, 08:13 PM

Who cares? It doesn't make a better administrator if true, nor does it make him a better one if false. He was a terrible president, that's the heart of the matter.

Incidentally, I heard of no such backlash against CBS. In fact, I've heard of no backlash against any news source when it turned out their information was faulty, regardless of who said information favored. It's sad, but people don't care. Put it on tv, and the hordes eat it up without question.

Adron · October 31, 2004, 08:15 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 08:10 PM
you remember the whole cbs breaking the news about documents about Bush's military past? They turned out to be forged by a flaming lib who just wanted to see bush go down in flames... instead the reputation of cbs and dan rather went down in falems.

No, haven't seen that. What was that about?

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 08:22 PM

Quote from: Zakath on October 31, 2004, 08:13 PM
Who cares? It doesn't make a better administrator if true, nor does it make him a better one if false. He was a terrible president, that's the heart of the matter.

What do you mean was? He will still be president until the day someone else is inaugerated. That may be in a few months, or in 4 more years. I think he is a great presiden... but you already knew that

Quote
Incidentally, I heard of no such backlash against CBS. In fact, I've heard of no backlash against any news source when it turned out their information was faulty, regardless of who said information favored. It's sad, but people don't care. Put it on tv, and the hordes eat it up without question.

I think they had a ratings hit, but yes, there was no legal recourse and no massive fallout. I hate cbs, and I hate viacom. This is one of the many things that cbs has done that I disagree with. They seem to piss on the truth in order to be the first station on a story.

The elite media in the united states sucks ass.

muert0 · October 31, 2004, 08:33 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 05:35 PM
He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.

My grandfather was in vietnam and he said that's pretty much what was going on.

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 08:35 PM

Quote from: muert0 on October 31, 2004, 08:33 PM
Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 05:35 PM
He made it sound like all of the troops were just going through and slaudering everyone in sight. The north vietnamese used it as propoganda.
My grandfather was in vietnam and he said that's pretty much what was going on.

Well I was not there, but I have not heard stories about Genocide or slaudering of the innocent from anyone I know. Just how much it sucked over there in the hot muggy environment hoping your gun does not jam when you are fighting with the north. That was apparently a huge problem... the m16s did not like the tropical environment.