Take your time.

[jigsaw]

Take 30 minutes to watch this, it  *is* probably a bit biased, but atleast it is factual.

http://www.stolenhonor.com/

There are a few videos on their. Watch "Stolen Honor" documentary.  This is an insight to someone who some believe should lead this country.

Might I add, I am proud of this country, and I stand for 2 things: God, and America.  I have faith in the American people and its government. Watch this video and give some feedback on this post. Thanks.

[Zakath]

*Groans*

jigz, you realize that those guys have been roundly discredited?

[Hazard]

No, its a different group that put on that production. I've seen the production, and its very good.

[jigsaw]

I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.

[Adron]

I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.

Kerry went to Vietnam and fought in Vietnam. I don't think you shuold call him a coward. He did his duty. Bush evaded Vietnam, he's the coward.

When Kerry got back, he pointed out that there were atrocities committed in war. Compare to Abu Ghraib - of course some people will think it's a bad idea to mention that Americans do bad things. People want everything to be nice and sweet and anything bad shouldn't be mentioned. Censorship as applied in a country pretending to have "freedom of speech".

Apart from that, Kerry spoke against the war in Vietnam. Wouldn't it have been nice if people had immediately listened and America had pulled out without wasting so many lives?

[Hazard]

I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.

Kerry went to Vietnam and fought in Vietnam. I don't think you shuold call him a coward. He did his duty. Bush evaded Vietnam, he's the coward.

When Kerry got back, he pointed out that there were atrocities committed in war. Compare to Abu Ghraib - of course some people will think it's a bad idea to mention that Americans do bad things. People want everything to be nice and sweet and anything bad shouldn't be mentioned. Censorship as applied in a country pretending to have "freedom of speech".

Apart from that, Kerry spoke against the war in Vietnam. Wouldn't it have been nice if people had immediately listened and America had pulled out without wasting so many lives?

Kerry wen't to Vietnam and fought, thats true. However I seem to remember YOU saying in another thread that merely going and fighting as you are assigned to do does not make you any sort of hero or dutiful individual.

Bush joined the Air National Guard, as many thousands did and still do. It wasn't an evading of duty. Joining the reserves as opposed to being drafted is not cowardice. Turning tail and fleeing the country to evade the draft is.

When Kerry returned, he joined and is considered by the founders as a co-founder of an anti-American-government and communist movement with the likes of Jane Fonda.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all hold hands around big campfires, roasting marshmellows and making smores next to chocolate rivers and gumdrop fields, with all of the children laughing and skipping merrily? Sure. Welcome to real life Adron. Consider head-anal inversion surgery and realize that its not the way the world is.

[quasi-modo]

Abu Ghraib is a non issue. Oh my gosh a few nude people, oh the horror. We completely violated the geneva convention there. Nothing like what saddam did to his own people and the Iranians.

Kerry spoke out against the war. People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps and were forced to listen to the crap. When he was calling the amrerican troops evil and murderers. I wish we could put him on trial for treason for that kind of crap.

[Hazard]

People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps

For real Adron. You want to talk about John Kerry being a hero? Oooh ahh, he killed a bunch of civillians and kids, as well as disarmed combatants who were running away from the fight. Oooh ahh he got hit by some shrapnel and had to get a band-aid on his arm, oh wow. Lets think about John McCain and his MONTHS in the POW camps and all that he wen't through.

[Zakath]

I get my stories first hand, I've got many relatives that went to Vietnam, my father for instance.  Kerry is a complete coward when it came to vietnam, and he disgraced my country.  This isnt an opinion this is based on facts... ask anyone who went to vietnam, ask them about kerry and what he did when they got back - I am blown away that people would even think of voting for him. Our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew this.

I'm sorry, but I flatly don't believe this. He was decorated for his service there, so evidently someone saw things differently than you.

Not to mention that some of the people trying to smear him were given honors for the same reasons he was. Either they lied then, or they lied now. Either way, I have no respect for anything they have to say. Both the military and, as I recall, the president himself have stood up for Kerry's record.

Hazard, also note that there "anti-American" is not defined as "anything you personally disapprove of." There is nothing anti-American about supporting communism; I've read the Manifesto, a lot of it makes sense. The fact that it's impossible to create a functional communist state in the real world doesn't make the idea evil.

[Zakath]

People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps

For real Adron. You want to talk about John Kerry being a hero? Oooh ahh, he killed a bunch of civillians and kids, as well as disarmed combatants who were running away from the fight. Oooh ahh he got hit by some shrapnel and had to get a band-aid on his arm, oh wow. Lets think about John McCain and his MONTHS in the POW camps and all that he wen't through.

John McCain is an infinitely better person than either Bush or Kerry. I would have had no real problem if it was him trying to get reelected rather than Bush.

[Zakath]

Abu Ghraib is a non issue. Oh my gosh a few nude people, oh the horror. We completely violated the geneva convention there. Nothing like what saddam did to his own people and the Iranians.

Kerry spoke out against the war. People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps and were forced to listen to the crap. When he was calling the amrerican troops evil and murderers. I wish we could put him on trial for treason for that kind of crap.

We behaved abysmally in Vietnam. There's really no disputing that. I personally think we had no business being there in the first place, but that's neither here nor now.

There's absolutely no connection between Kerry's opinions on the war and what McCain went through. They were soldiers, they do as they're told. People do get captured in war. What Kerry was saying is that McCain should never have been in a position to be captured in the first place - I don't think that's crap at all.

[quasi-modo]

Kerry has always bragged about being this war hero man. He made it an issue, when its really a non issue. Then he bitches because some people beg to differ. Because he fucked up when he got home and pissed on all of the people still in nam. Bush never tried to make an issue over the service. He never lied. He was in the air national guard in texas, not in nam. Of course he joined the guard to not go to nam, so what? People are saying he is a liar... I fail to see where he lied. People are forging documents to say that he is....

[quasi-modo]

Abu Ghraib is a non issue. Oh my gosh a few nude people, oh the horror. We completely violated the geneva convention there. Nothing like what saddam did to his own people and the Iranians.

Kerry spoke out against the war. People, like John McCain for instance were in POW camps and were forced to listen to the crap. When he was calling the amrerican troops evil and murderers. I wish we could put him on trial for treason for that kind of crap.

We behaved abysmally in Vietnam. There's really no disputing that. I personally think we had no business being there in the first place, but that's neither here nor now.

The idea was to contain communism. If we would have sticked it out a bit longer we would have won because some of the former north vietnamese generals have even come out and said that they were about to stop because they could not keep up.

There's absolutely no connection between Kerry's opinions on the war and what McCain went through. They were soldiers, they do as they're told. People do get captured in war. What Kerry was saying is that McCain should never have been in a position to be captured in the first place - I don't think that's crap at all.

Uh... I was not talking about that. I was talking about McCain being in a pow camp and then mccain coming back and calling all of the troops in nam criminals then the north vietnamese using that stuff to break the spirits of the prisoners. That is also a very dandy way to break the spirits of the troops that are there and not in pow camps.

[Zakath]

Kerry has always bragged about being this war hero man. He made it an issue, when its really a non issue. Then he bitches because some people beg to differ. Because he fucked up when he got home and pissed on all of the people still in nam. Bush never tried to make an issue over the service. He never lied. He was in the air national guard in texas, not in nam. Of course he joined the guard to not go to nam, so what? People are saying he is a liar... I fail to see where he lied. People are forging documents to say that he is....

He's bitching because the evidence suggests that those people aren't telling the truth. I agree that Bush's service record is a non-issue; I could really care less. He's a horrible administrator, the fact that he did or did not fulfill his "duty to his country" or whatever doesn't change that.

Frankly, I think military service is a stupid way of measuring patriotism. I would make an abysmal soldier. I have no desire to pick up any sort of weapon and kill people with it, under any circumstances. It simply isn't something I can even think about. I don't see how that makes me any more or less than any other person.

Edit: I misunderstood what you were getting at. I disagree that Kerry did anything wrong by saying what he did, but he was perhaps he could have chosen his words a bit better. I still think you can't hold it against someone to say what they choose to say.

[quasi-modo]

Kerry did not say the war is bad. He said the soldiers are criminals. If that is not anti american I do not know what is. I do not get pissed at people who hate the war in Iraq but support the troops, but kerry hated it all with nam.

I lost my respct for you because you said you lost respect for me because you can't grasp my point.