Language information

[Mitosis]

Well, as you all know I like to do stuff with photoshop. I want to enter a career of webdesign and multimedia. So, I have scanned through different languages and was wondering which is a decent beginner language.

The languages I have seen are;

PHP
ASP.NET
XML
HTML
CSS

I have read up a bit on them so I need help from the pros..

[MyndFyre]

Well, as you all know I like to do stuff with photoshop. I want to enter a career of webdesign and multimedia. So, I have scanned through different languages and was wondering which is a decent beginner language.

The languages I have seen are;

PHP
ASP.NET
XML
HTML
CSS

I have read up a bit on them so I need help from the pros..

I'm first going to go off on how ASP.NET is not a language, but a framework; XML and HTML are not programming languages in the traditional sense, and CSS is not a language at all.

That said, my first question is -- what do you know already?

If you know Visual Basic or JavaScript, then ASP or ASP .NET is the way to go.  If you know Java or C++, then ASP.NET is probably the way to go (you can create ASP.NET applications with C#, a very close relative to Java, or with J#, Microsoft's Java rip-off, as well as managed C++).  If you know Perl, then Perl on an Apache server might work for you, or PHP.

XML is a standard that provides data with easy-to-read structure.  For example, you might have a members list:

Code Select Expand


<? xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<Members>
 <Member Name="Mitosis" Password="mitosisownzyou" />
 <Member Name="MyndFyre" Password="ithinknot" />
 <Member Name="Grok" Password="ihatepeoplewhomakewordplaysofmyname" />
</Members>


(Grok's password is poking fun at the puns you can make of his name -- "Grokkoli," for example).

Anyway, it looks a LOT like HTML, but it can be made up however you want it, so it's really easy to give data structure.  XML has led to a lot of other technologies, such as XPath and XSLT.  XSLT, meaning "eXtensible Stylesheet Language for Transformation," allows you to create XML documents that output some other kind of text -- basically transforming your XML into something useful, such as an HTML page.

HTML is still around, but IMHO within 15 years it will be biting the bullet (esp. with Longhorn's push to XAML, and XML-based application framework).  It provides a really easy way to get started with web development, and a really easy object model for client-side scripting (VBScript and Javascript).

CSS is a technology developed to create a standard of how all browsers should render specific elements on a web page in HTML.  The most typical use for it is to define "classes" of items that all have a similar formatting -- for example, the links on top might made with the code:

Code Select Expand


<a href="http://www.valhallalegends.com/" target="_blank" class="nav">Home</a>

The "nav" class might be defined:

Code Select Expand


.nav:link
{
 color: gray;
 text-decoration: none;  <!-- where you could have "underline" -->
 font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, Sans-Serif;
 font-size: 8px;
}
.nav:hover
{
 color: red;
 text-decoration: underline;
 font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, Sans-Serif;
 font-size: 8px;
}


CSS is used by l33t n3wbs who make their links have underline and overline, but also by professional web developers skilled in laying out items in particular, static places.

I'm not particularly familiar with PHP, but I know enough to squeeze by.

Anyway, I do a lot of work on ASP.NET because it provides all kinds of other ways to interact with other code.  My ASP.NET web application @ my bot's site also authenticates users of my bot through another XML technology called SOAP (Simple Object Access Protocol), and my clan's site has a lot of information stored in XML datafiles.  All of my clan's site's administration (for the last version) was done through an easy-to-use Windows program.  For the project I'm putting together for vL, it will be able to be updated through the web interface, or an optional Windows component that can run on the desktop.

My 2 cents.  

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Right now, I have no idea what I'm going to use for web languages...but here's what I'm considering:

- ColdFusion...this is what I use right now, and it's pretty good!
- J2EE w/ Jython servlets...less typing than above, but J2EE is wayyyy too complicated
- Zope...cool idea, Zope3 will rock but it's not out yet
- Home-grown...who knows

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT USE PHP!!!! I cannot stress that enough.

[Grok]

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT USE PHP!!!! I cannot stress that enough.

You rule.

[Adron]

Well... I kinda like PHP, from my experiences using it at vl. But I think most languages will do.

I recently found Perl in use on a large and successful Swedish site, www.elfa.se. So I decided to go look around a bit, at the sites I visit from time to time, to research for this post.

I poked www.amazon.co.uk and found
Server: Stronghold/2.4.2 Apache/1.3.6 C2NetEU/2412 (Unix) amarewrite/0.1 mod_fastcgi/2.2.12

I poked www.cddb.com and found
Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) PHP/4.3.2

I poked www.dustin.se and found
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0
X-Powered-By: ASP.NET

I poked www.imdb.com and found
Server: Apache

I poked www.b3ta.com and found
Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) Debian GNU/Linux PHP/4.1.2

I poked www.dilbert.com and found
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix) Resin/2.1.s030505 mod_ssl/2.8.14 OpenSSL/0.9.7b

I poked www.whsmith.co.uk and found
Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
(no ASP.NET header, just plain ASP)

I poked www.ginza.se and found
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0
Set-Cookie: ASP.NET_SessionId=daw04dmah0bapp45hejdkc55; path=/

I poked www.cdon.com and found
Server: Apache
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.0.6
X-Accelerated-By: PHPA/1.3.3r2



My conclusion is that there are all sorts of languages in use. I think that for smaller sites running off some shared webserver, you are more likely to be able to use PHP and other unix-based solutions, while for large company sites (with their own servers) the selection is fairly even - they will use whatever works for them.

[Tuberload]

I am a hobbyist programmer so I like to use things that are free. So in conclusion I use Apache 1.3 series, the latest versions of MySQL and PHP, and of course Java.

[j0k3r]

PHP is a fairly simple language once you get the hang of it, but the errors the interpreters produce are horrible and don't help at all. It's also very loose with it's syntax, and you can do alot of stuff you're not supposed to be able to do in other (real) languages. The good side to it is that you can get lot's of support because lot's of people know it and are willing to help.

You also might want to take a look at the difference between server side/client side programming/scripting. If you're going to be showing/using alot of graphics then you probably want client-side scripting, so to ease the load on the CPU (however much that might be, might not be important).

None of this could be right, I haven't done any research in a long time and forget easily, someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

When netcrafting a bunch of sites, you also might not be hitting their app server (server that serves the dynamic pages).

PHP is such a bitch to maintain and a bitch to write, too. Don't use it.

[Grok]

I am a hobbyist programmer so I like to use things that are free. So in conclusion I use Apache 1.3 series, the latest versions of MySQL and PHP, and of course Java.

With an apache server, how do you point an http 1.1 hostheader, like "botdev.valhallalegends.com" to a specific website on a server that has dozens of sites and only one IP?

[Adron]

With an apache server, how do you point an http 1.1 hostheader, like "botdev.valhallalegends.com" to a specific website on a server that has dozens of sites and only one IP?

You use VirtualHost sections:

#
# Use name-based virtual hosting.
#
NameVirtualHost *

#
# VirtualHost example:
# Almost any Apache directive may go into a VirtualHost container.
# The first VirtualHost section is used for requests without a known
# server name.
#
<VirtualHost *>
   ServerAdmin [email protected]
   DocumentRoot /var/www/defhtml
   ServerName default
   ErrorLog logs/default-error_log
   CustomLog logs/default-access_log combined
</VirtualHost>
<VirtualHost *>
   ServerAdmin [email protected]
   DocumentRoot /var/www/html
   ServerName home.somewhere.com
   ErrorLog logs/home.somewhere.com-error_log
   CustomLog logs/home.somewhere.com-access_log combined
</VirtualHost>
<VirtualHost *>
   ServerAdmin [email protected]
   DocumentRoot /var/www/maria
   ServerName maria.somewhere.com
   ErrorLog logs/maria.somewhere.com-error_log
   CustomLog logs/maria.somewhere.com-access_log combined
   ThrottlePolicy Original 100K 10s
</VirtualHost>

[Mitosis]

I dont know, I may try PHP. Like Akamas told me that you can do anything with it, and it's not hard. Then again, for ASP.NET I would have to learn other langauges right? I'm not going to really  make a decision now. Ill just listen to what you guys say and take it all in.

[MyndFyre]

I am a hobbyist programmer so I like to use things that are free. So in conclusion I use Apache 1.3 series, the latest versions of MySQL and PHP, and of course Java.

Bah.  The Microsoft .NET Framework SDK is free.  You can get an ASP.NET server for free (called Cassini Web Server) that you can run on Win98/Me/2000/XP.  If you have Windows 2000 or XP Pro you have IIS anyway.  You can get the ASP.NET Web Matrix to do visual ASP.NET design.  If you want data, ASP.NET supports XML natively.

I'm a hobbyist programmer too.  It doesn't mean that Microsoft products are completely excluded from your arena.  Visual Studio .NET Academic is very inexpensive.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

I dont know, I may try PHP. Like Akamas told me that you can do anything with it, and it's not hard. Then again, for ASP.NET I would have to learn other langauges right? I'm not going to really  make a decision now. Ill just listen to what you guys say and take it all in.

DONT LISTEN TO HIM. HE LIES!

Myndfyre, I've been checking out ASP.NET, and I don't like what I see (but I think I'm being stupid). Can you tell me an easy way to show a list of the results of a SELECT, AND have a common theme across every page in the site?

I'm using webmatrix

[Mitosis]

You can get the ASP.NET Web Matrix to do visual ASP.NET design.  If you want data, ASP.NET supports XML natively.

So do you do everything visually or is it coding? Im downloading it now and checking it out.

[edit] Alright looks like you have to code...Im just not sure which language is best to start out with.

[quasi-modo]

You can get the ASP.NET Web Matrix to do visual ASP.NET design.  If you want data, ASP.NET supports XML natively.

So do you do everything visually or is it coding? Im downloading it now and checking it out.

[edit] Alright looks like you have to code...Im just not sure which language is best to start out with.

I hard code all of my asp.net in dreamweaver. You are going to have to hard code the scripting. You can use editors like vs.net or webmatrix to help you set some properties and all, but in the end you will have to write scripts. Dreamweaver frontpage web matrix vb.net, they all have wysiwyg features to lay out the site visually, but I do not suggest using them because what you see is not what you get. You have to factor in user browser, platform, and resolution. As always I reccomend using css for layout, though a properly styled table can still be accessible and standards compliant.

About starting languages, I went into asp.net with some vb6 experience under my belt, so that is what I chose. I am sure if I had as much java experience then as I do now I would have gone with jsp (java server pages) or php. But IMO asp.net is the best because it is fully object oriented, has unmatched language flexibility, event aware controls, has speed comparable to php, and compiles like jsp. Asp.net is the newest so it has unique features from everywhere else.

*note: you can run asp.net from apache and linux, it can be completely free. Asp.net is cross platofmr compadable because of the novell mono project. A wopping 1% of asp.net websites run from linux.