Paternalism in the US

[Adron]

This is why people are able to make mistakes.  The phrase live and learn has origins in the stupidity of people and their regrets after the fact.  If a person regrets doing something then logically they shouldnt do it again.  If they do it again and make it into the darwin awards then thats great but I still dont think the government should limit their rights to do it

That's only valid for the things that don't cause permanent consequences to them. Making a mistake that can be undone is OK, but making the mistake of getting your brain half crushed and being turned into a vegetable is not.

[Telos]

That's only valid for the things that don't cause permanent consequences to them. Making a mistake that can be undone is OK, but making the mistake of getting your brain half crushed and being turned into a vegetable is not.

Guess you should have demonstrated some foresight?

[Telos]

Let's say your girlfriend//wife borrowed your car. She gets in a wreck with your license plate numbers. Then she dies, because you signed a waiver. Then you would have a reason to commit suicide.

And I think it was George Carlin who said this in regards to cigarettes," If ketchup had half the carcinogens that tobacco had. They would be off the shelf tomorrow."

Youre arguing semantics the point is that people should just have the right to choose what they do to themselves

[Telos]

Right, and people without medical insurance or people who can't afford to pay their hospital bills die on the pavement.  You're talking about devaluing human life by putting a price tag on it in some way or another.  

RE: original topic of "Father Knows Best":  This isn't a black or white issue.  The state doesn't have to protect everyone from themselves or let everyone be responsible for themselves.  The American government and most governments are somewhere in between.  Cocaine is illegal; Supersized McDonalds fries coated in grease and obscene amounts of salt are legal.    

Wtf are you talking about?  Im saying only people who waive their right to medical assistance die on the pavement how is that putting a price tag on anything?

Yes there are some completely unhealthy things that are legal cigarettes foods high in fat and/or sugar content alcohol and we should have the right to do those things as well as the right to do the others like cocaine if we want to.  The reason the government doesnt restrict all of those liberties is because they know at some point people just wont stand for it (ie prohibition)

[muert0]

Let's say your girlfriend//wife borrowed your car. She gets in a wreck with your license plate numbers. Then she dies, because you signed a waiver. Then you would have a reason to commit suicide.

And I think it was George Carlin who said this in regards to cigarettes," If ketchup had half the carcinogens that tobacco had. They would be off the shelf tomorrow."

Youre arguing semantics the point is that people should just have the right to choose what they do to themselves

No, I'm saying what you do yourself affects everyone else around you. Your simple call to 911 and the police not coming becasue of a license plate number is absurd. Let's just send a tow truck and have the coroner meet them at the impound yard....

[Moonshine]

Let's say your girlfriend//wife borrowed your car. She gets in a wreck with your license plate numbers. Then she dies, because you signed a waiver. Then you would have a reason to commit suicide.

And I think it was George Carlin who said this in regards to cigarettes," If ketchup had half the carcinogens that tobacco had. They would be off the shelf tomorrow."

Youre arguing semantics the point is that people should just have the right to choose what they do to themselves

No, I'm saying what you do yourself affects everyone else around you. Your simple call to 911 and the police not coming becasue of a license plate number is absurd. Let's just send a tow truck and have the coroner meet them at the impound yard....

Dude, give it up, your point doesn't even make sense.  You certainly didn't prove that the affects on other people have any bearing whatsoever on the person's right to doing what they want with THEIR body.

[Adron]

Dude, give it up, your point doesn't even make sense.  You certainly didn't prove that the affects on other people have any bearing whatsoever on the person's right to doing what they want with THEIR body.

Because producing, feeding, and raising THEIR body is an investment the society has made, the society expects them to keep their body in good enough shape to produce a reasonable pay off.

Because restoring THEIR body after they go get themselves into an accident without wearing a seatbelt is going to cost the society even more money, the society has the right to forbid them from engaging in such dangerous acts.

But apart from that, once you reach the age of retirement, I wouldn't mind you signing a waiver of rights and then going off to kill yourself at your leisure.

[Telos]

Are you really saying that after someone has aged to the point where they can no longer contribute to society then they can do what they want with their life or did I misinterpret you?

[Grok]

If you really want to kill yourself, and are not insane, you would just do it.  As society we recognize that if you are stating you want to kill yourself that it is a call for help.  Society is set up to protect humanity, not just individual humans, and thus we treat you as part of the whole.  Your insane actions to damage part of the whole are what is illegal.  We will treat your condition, even if it kills you

[Moonshine]

   Okay sure, I agree with people can't interfere with "the whole's" rights or whatnot.  However, how does this make doing drugs illegal (or other "illegal" activities relative in nature herein)?  Certainly the argument would be "well it LEADS to crime most times and etc etc."  Well if you're going to have a mind-set such as that... why not be racist?  Statistically it's a sound bet to think minorities do crime a lot more, isn't it (don't challenge me on this, I could be wrong, but you should get the point anyways)?  Crime certainly isn't the *direct* result of doing drugs -- the same with being any other race, having any other beliefs system, etc (within reason).  

You also need to keep in mind that unless you're deliberately trying to "fuck with someone's mind" so to speak, the fact that one gets offense or psychological displeasure from one other's action is just tough luck; because honestly, I bet you can find someone who would take offense to just about anything you do nowadays.

  I think you put it best when you said basically: if someone is going to kill themselves.. they'll just do it.  The same goes for any "Illegal" activity pertaining to something infringing upon our rights (under me and telos' argumentative idealogy here).  Punishment over such things is just the wrong way to go about it, period; as shown with the losing "war on drugs," etc.  It's simply wrong, and not the way.

EDIT:
 One more thing: shame on those of whom are throwing or have thrown personal attacks at telos throughout this thread, just because he doesn't have conservative or juxtapositional ideals like yourselves.  I won't mention who has done this, but you have to realize that calling him a "fool" or "idiot" or equivilent is just an ignorant response, and it shows hypocrisy.  Let's have an intellectual debate here, not some ignorant personal attack fest.

[Adron]

Are you really saying that after someone has aged to the point where they can no longer contribute to society then they can do what they want with their life or did I misinterpret you?

I'm not fully convinced about that. My main point was that while you're young, you've probably cost society more than you've repaid. So at that time, you have a kind of "debt" to the society.

[Grok]

I won't mention who has done this, but you have to realize that calling him a "fool" or "idiot" or equivilent is just an ignorant response, and it shows hypocrisy.  Let's have an intellectual debate here, not some ignorant personal attack fest.

You're stupid for saying this.  Only a moron would appeal to losers who cannot refrain from mudslinging.  I think you should be shot and shipped to momma in a pine box.

[Adron]

I won't mention who has done this, but you have to realize that calling him a "fool" or "idiot" or equivilent is just an ignorant response, and it shows hypocrisy.  Let's have an intellectual debate here, not some ignorant personal attack fest.

You're stupid for saying this.  Only a moron would appeal to losers who cannot refrain from mudslinging.  I think you should be shot and shipped to momma in a pine box.

Stop trying to kill me!  

[muert0]

The only thing I said about drugs was that pot would be legal, soon. I do drugs occasionaly. I used to do them a lot. I think the war on drugs is complete crap to an extent. But, you do have people who have absolutely no self-control or self-discipline, they go out and do certain drugs then they start robbing people and selling everybodies shit for dope. So, the people who can handle their shit, just do drugs occasionally are outright banned.

[Moonshine]

The only thing I said about drugs was that pot would be legal, soon. I do drugs occasionaly. I used to do them a lot. I think the war on drugs is complete crap to an extent. But, you do have people who have absolutely no self-control or self-discipline, they go out and do certain drugs then they start robbing people and selling everybodies shit for dope. So, the people who can handle their shit, just do drugs occasionally are outright banned.

See, you do drugs... do you consider yourself a criminal and or morally wrong person?  I would assume not (heh).  I agree that drugs are definitely related to a lot of crime, and there are people who cannot handle themselves.  The thing is, they should not be punished for their actions of DOING drugs (the means), they should be punished for the end result, which is assault, robbery, etc.