Paternalism in the US

[DarkMinion]

Otherwise known as the paranoid, against all authority, "you can't tell me what to do", narrow-minded kiddy side?

[Telos]

DM theres a huge difference between saying the government should let me do anything I want to do period and the government should let me do what I want to do to myself.  It doesnt have anything to do with "you cant tell me what to do" anti-authority gothism or whatever dysphemisms you want to put on it.  The fact of the matter is that the government oversteps its authority in creating laws that tell me what I cannot do with my own life particularly in situations where others are not affected.

[DarkMinion]

The laws are in place because, more often than not, what you do to yourself either directly or indirectly effects other people.

If you argue against that you are beyond stupid.

[Telos]

Yes it affects other people but as long as it doesnt constitute harm to them then what does it matter?  If I dont wear my seatbelt while driving and I get into a crash am I harming anyone but myself?  Maybe in the unlikely event that my corpse flies through the windshield and suffocates someone or something.  If I choose to become addicted to heroin is it causing harm to anyone else?  No.

[Adron]

Yes it affects other people but as long as it doesnt constitute harm to them then what does it matter?  If I dont wear my seatbelt while driving and I get into a crash am I harming anyone but myself?  Maybe in the unlikely event that my corpse flies through the windshield and suffocates someone or something.  If I choose to become addicted to heroin is it causing harm to anyone else?  No.

If you don't wear your seatbelt while driving and get into a crash, it may cause emotional injury to your relatives. Like suicide. It may also cost money to treat your injuries.

Reasons for forbidding drugs could be that they affect people so they behave irresponsibly, that they cause injuries which will cost money to treat, that they cause death (see question 1), or just that people are too stupid to know their own good. Of course, alcohol should be illegal as well, it's just that they haven't realized that yet.

One good reason for outlawing various things that only affect yourself is that you're most likely going to regret doing them. If the risk of you regretting doing it multiplied by some badness factor is greater than the chance of you appreciating it multiplied by some goodness factor by a large enough margin, it may be forbidden.

[Telos]

If you don't wear your seatbelt while driving and get into a crash, it may cause emotional injury to your relatives. Like suicide. It may also cost money to treat your injuries.

Psychological harm isnt a valid concern.  Look at the court system we have criminal courts for crimes and civil courts for when someone spills coffee on themselves and needs someone to blame for their mental anguish.  As to the issue of economic harm if you give your informed consent to disobey a government recommendation (like wearing seatbelts or doing drugs) then youve waived the governments financial liability for you in those settings.  Its a very good system of personal responsibility.

Reasons for forbidding drugs could be that they affect people so they behave irresponsibly, that they cause injuries which will cost money to treat, that they cause death (see question 1), or just that people are too stupid to know their own good. Of course, alcohol should be illegal as well, it's just that they haven't realized that yet.

See answer 1

One good reason for outlawing various things that only affect yourself is that you're most likely going to regret doing them. If the risk of you regretting doing it multiplied by some badness factor is greater than the chance of you appreciating it multiplied by some goodness factor by a large enough margin, it may be forbidden.

This is why people are able to make mistakes.  The phrase live and learn has origins in the stupidity of people and their regrets after the fact.  If a person regrets doing something then logically they shouldnt do it again.  If they do it again and make it into the darwin awards then thats great but I still dont think the government should limit their rights to do it

[Grok]

If you don't wear your seatbelt while driving and get into a crash, it may cause emotional injury to your relatives. Like suicide. It may also cost money to treat your injuries.

Psychological harm isnt a valid concern.  Look at the court system we have criminal courts for crimes and civil courts for when someone spills coffee on themselves and needs someone to blame for their mental anguish.  As to the issue of economic harm if you give your informed consent to disobey a government recommendation (like wearing seatbelts or doing drugs) then youve waived the governments financial liability for you in those settings.  Its a very good system of personal responsibility.

Motorcycle helmet laws are another example of this, and these laws have withstood Constitutional scrutiny.  In reality, motorcyclists not wearing helmets is a personal choice that has significant effects on society.  Riders who crash consume hospital resources of doctors, nurses, and spaces, and mostly do not have their own adequate insurance for the hundreds of thousands it costs to do brain repair.  These costs historically have fallen them to indigent status, and the hospitals collected from the states.

While you are not talking about motorcycle helmets, but presumably euthenasia(sp), I am showing you that personal choice has an effect on humanity, not just a single human, and it is the humanity's duty and right to protect itself by protecting you.  We will judge you irrational and insane, and in need of protection and treatment, by defining your choice as irrational and insane.

Our Constitution requires that the government provide not just for individual liberty and persuit of happiness, but for the Common Welfare.  To that end we enact laws that may encroach on seemingly personal rights.

[Telos]

Which was probably the reason that I said people who choose to go against what would be recommendations like helmet/seat belt laws would sign a waiver based on their informed consent that what they are doing carries serious risks and that they knowingly accept that we will leave their brains hanging from their crushed skulls in the event of an accident.

[Hitmen]

Which was probably the reason that I said people who choose to go against what would be recommendations like helmet/seat belt laws would sign a waiver based on their informed consent that what they are doing carries serious risks and that they knowingly accept that we will leave their brains hanging from their crushed skulls in the event of an accident.

And you really think anything like that would ever happen? Do you think they would bother to check if you signed a waiver or not? No! They're going to try to save your fucking life no matter what. It's their job.

[Telos]

And it would be their job to not bother with people who have waived their right to help?  Did you even think it through before posting or do you just live somewhere with magical ambulances that appear the instant after an accident?

[Hitmen]

And it would be their job to not bother with people who have waived their right to help?  Did you even think it through before posting or do you just live somewhere with magical ambulances that appear the instant after an accident?

When someone is in an accident they get there as fast as they can and immedietley treat the wounded, they would never waste time looking up a bullshit waiver. What are they going to do, leave a guy there with his head split open while they dig out his wallet to find his name?

[muert0]

With the drug thing, it's just a matter of time before pot is legal. Prostitution is legalized in parts of nevada since they figured out a good system to set it up where they can tax it. They will figure out how they wanna tax marijuana soon enough.

[Telos]

When someone is in an accident they get there as fast as they can and immedietley treat the wounded, they would never waste time looking up a bullshit waiver. What are they going to do, leave a guy there with his head split open while they dig out his wallet to find his name?

Ok once again the ambulance does not magically appear someone has to call for it.

"Hi Id like to report an accident its an emergency"
"Ok where is it?"
"This place"
"Ok ambulance is on its way now please give me license plates of vehicles involved"
"XXX-XXX and XXX-XXX"
[2 seconds of computer lookup later]
"Sir theyve both filed waivers for their medical rights the ambulance is returning"
"What about the cars blocking my way?"
"Theyll be moved you have a nice day now"

[K]

Ok once again the ambulance does not magically appear someone has to call for it.

"Hi Id like to report an accident its an emergency"
"Ok where is it?"
"This place"
"Ok ambulance is on its way now please give me license plates of vehicles involved"
"XXX-XXX and XXX-XXX"
[2 seconds of computer lookup later]
"Sir theyve both filed waivers for their medical rights the ambulance is returning"
"What about the cars blocking my way?"
"Theyll be moved you have a nice day now"

Right, and people without medical insurance or people who can't afford to pay their hospital bills die on the pavement.  You're talking about devaluing human life by putting a price tag on it in some way or another.  

RE: original topic of "Father Knows Best":  This isn't a black or white issue.  The state doesn't have to protect everyone from themselves or let everyone be responsible for themselves.  The American government and most governments are somewhere in between.  Cocaine is illegal; Supersized McDonalds fries coated in grease and obscene amounts of salt are legal.    

[muert0]

Let's say your girlfriend//wife borrowed your car. She gets in a wreck with your license plate numbers. Then she dies, because you signed a waiver. Then you would have a reason to commit suicide.

And I think it was George Carlin who said this in regards to cigarettes," If ketchup had half the carcinogens that tobacco had. They would be off the shelf tomorrow."