BnetDocs improvements

[l)ragon]

how about you make it so that you dont have to be in a selected social group to get all the information?

Gogo get a Hauppauge PVR-350 and help me write better drivers for it! All my current sources for that are freely available at the vl.com CVS!

PVR-350?

[Adron]

PVR-350?

Edit: Enhanced dRAgoN's part

[c0ol]

IMO the whole concept of self discovery is a good idea, but are you the one to enforce it?  Personally it just looks like another way to seperate the "elite" from the "newbs".  This rant is more aimed at the users of bnet docs, do you want to be classified as a newb?  I dont think the information is worth getting if you have to be classified and seperated to do it.  Though you, as the webmaster may have the right to do such things, I as the client have the right to not support it.  The propagation of "privateware" can only happen if the users support it, so i encourage you (as the users) to exercise your right stop.

[Adron]

The propagation of "privateware" can only happen if the users support it, so i encourage you (as the users) to exercise your right stop.

It's not clear to me who you are talking to? Arta's site is a huge bonus over the old sharing of text files that we used to do. And those text files were never published to the general public either. So - even if bnetdocs wasn't there, we would probably still be exchanging information. I don't see how your not using bnetdocs will stop us from sharing information.

[Arta]

Then from your point of view, I've simply collected together data that's mostly public domain anyway, categorised it, tidied it, made sure it's accurate to the best of my knowledge, and added some things that people will hopefully find useful, like comments and a search facility. I don't see what the problem is.

[Adron]

I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that you haven't given everyone everything for free.

Can't you see?

You should've obtained full source code for all Blizzard products, added your own 100% accurate comments to allow a person with no previous programming experience to understand everything. You should've made this available to everyone in the world, and ensured that you have redundant servers with 99.99999% guaranteed uptime. And of course it has to be free.


You suck Arta, now go back to working on this and don't show your face around here until you've added everything in the world to bnetdocs. And then when you come back we'll tell you how wrong everything is again. No, we're not ungrateful.

[c0ol]

The problem is that you dont give it for the good of the community.  Were it for the good of the community, you wouldnt restrict the users.  The community doesnt need people to restrict the information.  

P.S. Maddox has created a free (as in speech & beer) database of information from bnetd, me, and some other sources, check it out. It also supports the submition of packets, contact maddox for details on that.
http://home.madd0x.net/Archive/

[l)ragon]

PVR-350?

Thats differant thought they only had regular WinTV stuff, i got a usb WinTV made by them.

[Skywing]

The problem is that you dont give it for the good of the community.  Were it for the good of the community, you wouldnt restrict the users.  The community doesnt need people to restrict the information.  

P.S. Maddox has created a free (as in speech & beer) database of information from bnetd, me, and some other sources, check it out. It also supports the submition of packets, contact maddox for details on that.
http://home.madd0x.net/Archive/

IIRC, Arta started this as a personal project.  The fact that you even know of it's existance is simply due to his good will.

Not everything is done "for the community", and it shouldn't have to be.  People have every right to work on their own personal projects, and share those with people if they wish, in a limited or completely open way if they so desire.

I hate to make the comparison, but what you're describing is like communism - you have to contribute to the "whole", always, and never do anything "just for fun".

Personally I'd say this probably doesn't reflect on your ideas very well - IMO, the "correct response" would be something like: "Thanks for letting me view this information, but I think I'll do my own site in a more open fashion because it's what I want to do." and not "Because your site isn't completely open about all known details of Battle.net, it's hurting users and is a bad thing and should be done away with.".

Most of your posts in this thread seem to be aimed more at attacking/deriding an existing thing, rather than working to build a new and better thing, which seems (at least in my interpretation) rather counter to the whole "open source" philosophy.  I thought "open source" was supposed to be people working together to make a better something, rather than trying to hurt somebody else's creation with a campaign of attacks --- to me, this sounds a whole lot more like politics.

FYI, this is why I don't like to release things - people always end up wanting you to do more, what's there is never enough to satisfy.

[Camel]

To me it seems clear that BnetDocs has turned into a case of "I know something you don't know." Perhaps it's not the implimentation of BnetDocs that is flawed, but the additude of its priveledged users?

I fully support Arta in his descision to not release all of the information he has, because what is hidden has never been released into the public domain so far as I know. However, I find it extremely arrogant and pretentious when someone posts something -- in the public domain -- pertaining to their own access level on BnetDocs; I won't name names.

I have a lot of code that I wrote which other people want. Does that give them the right to have it? I don't think so, but it's also not my job to brag about what I have.

[Tubby]

Well I know Im a newb. Im grateful that I got help here. It was one main reason I started to learn VB. I think Arta is very generous in what he has put out. I have been there and you should see that he didnt have to put it out. He did it because it would help people. I understand why people wont give out code. Just because he doesnt share certain things doesnt stop you from trying to figure it out. Most people on this board had to do it.

[Camel]

[semi-ot]
If anybody is interested in helping me map out and publish the war3/w3xp login sequence, private message me.
[/semi-ot]

[c0ol]

If its just for fun thats fine, but why does fun include the exclusion of everyone else?  It seems alot of projects like this just go out of their way to segregate the community.  It obviously isnt about fun, the whole thing where you have to take logins, and rate packets by the viewers "bnet connections".  Or when bot developers that release stuff into the public maintain a completly seperate version for their inside group.  Im not asking you for more, im not asking you for anything.  Im talking to the bnetdocs users, and asking them to respect the community.

[Denial]

Ah a subject which everyone will argue over freedom of things or privacy. I believe that it's up to the user who makes it if they want to give everything or only part of it. This way if they set a foundation people can learn and continue. If people get everything at once they will become lazy and expect everything for them. Skywing is right about if you release something to the public people will complain about it lacking something or how "sucky" it is. The people who chose to release source codes to the public i thank them but those who don't it's their own hard work that they wish to keep with themselves or a few friends. Then that is their right if you have a problem with it go remake what they did on your own and give it out to everyone don't. They saying says don't shout about it do something about it.

[Grok]

Attitudes like c0oL's are why vL exists, and why people think vL members are arrogant.  Among other reasons, the clan was created with the selfish intention that certain people could have somewhere to get some peace, while discussing and doing the things that they enjoy.  Things that 99% of battle.net cannot do or understand.

Peace from the have-nots clamoring for reasons why they should have without doing themselves.  Peace from incessant reasoning about how those who are creating things are really hurting others by not giving away their creations.  Peace from all the questions, the begging, the whining, and just annoying attitudes.

It's so easy to criticize, so easy to tear down, and takes no real effort to rip apart someone else.  What earns respect is creation, which to do well takes not just "creativite thought" but the passion, motivation, perseverance, and sometimes intelligence to see a project through to completion.

Most times this takes a will to do it by onesself, because we have found that during creation, nobody cares but the creator.  After something is created though, lots of people are willing to "share it with the community".