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[MyndFyre]

Note a lack of overloaded operators, unsafe code, unsigned types, using statements, hell VB until 2005 didn't even have inheritance or interfaces!

Again, you're wrong: Visual Basic was a fully object-oriented .NET citizen as of 2002 when C# debuted.  As far as overloaded operators, unsafe code, and unsigned types, the bottom line is that these are edge cases.  I can count on my hands the number of times I've ever used unsafe code for personal projects and never used it in a professional project.  Overloaded operator creation is also pretty infrequent (how often do you need to reimplement a numeric type?).  And unsigned types are the same thing too - they're not used in the BCL, they're not part of SQL, and even if you could say they're useful for B.net, the bottom line is that lots of people have gotten by without them with VB6.  So... who cares?

  VB didn't support the other three items out of the box in 1.x (although people were writing tools to extract XML comments from VB code), but hey, C# doesn't support an intrinsic XML type, so it must suck.  C# doesn't support the My namespace, or the with statement. 

Those are rather weak things to complain about, it's pretty obvious that VB.NET has historically always been a step behind C#.

Ever use the My namespace?  Pretty fucking awesome.  Access to ports, audio, user, network stack, application log....  The intrinsic XML type is pretty awesome too.  Did you look at the link I provided? 

The language which typically gets the feature first is C#, which is the entire basis behind my argument. C# is at the forefront of .NET development, it's very seldom C# gets features VB has had for a while (The recent exception being named and optional params)

Oh yeah, VB has had optional parameters since... forever.  So has C++, incidentally.  The descendant C#, though, didn't.  Hmmm....

History seems to disagree.

I might suggest actually doing some research:

Portions of the CLR are written in C# and portions are written in VB – both languages are first-class citizens on the CLR

I don't believe that differences in the languages make one a second-class citizen. The teams have chosen to invest in different features, but this provides advantages to developers because it gives them a better opportunity to select the tool that's right for the job.

[Warrior]

Again, you're wrong: Visual Basic was a fully object-oriented .NET citizen as of 2002 when C# debuted.

Interesting, I remember reading an article which suggested the contrary. Oh well, good that it's not as bad as I thought.

  As far as overloaded operators, unsafe code, and unsigned types, the bottom line is that these are edge cases.  I can count on my hands the number of times I've ever used unsafe code for personal projects and never used it in a professional project.  Overloaded operator creation is also pretty infrequent (how often do you need to reimplement a numeric type?).  And unsigned types are the same thing too - they're not used in the BCL, they're not part of SQL, and even if you could say they're useful for B.net, the bottom line is that lots of people have gotten by without them with VB6.  So... who cares?

There's also partial interfaces, yield, static classes, and auto properties, but the overall point is that it does get features later, regardless of how important you think they are.

Ever use the My namespace?  Pretty fucking awesome.  Access to ports, audio, user, network stack, application log....  The intrinsic XML type is pretty awesome too.  Did you look at the link I provided? 

No, they sound neat, but they can most certainly be dismissed in the same manner you dismissed the differences I cited.

Oh yeah, VB has had optional parameters since... forever.  So has C++, incidentally.  The descendant C#, though, didn't.  Hmmm....

And how useful are they? C# has function overloading, so the only advantage for them is probably COM Interop.

Portions of the CLR are written in C# and portions are written in VB – both languages are first-class citizens on the CLR

I don't believe that differences in the languages make one a second-class citizen. The teams have chosen to invest in different features, but this provides advantages to developers because it gives them a better opportunity to select the tool that's right for the job.

What do you expect him to say? One language has precedence over the other? Obvious they want to cater to a large audience.

[brew]

I don't understand why Warrior fails to see that they - as two separate languages - have different goals and audiences. Even the Express websites highlight this fundamental difference in the product descriptions.
Visual Basic '08: "Productivity that is ideal for first time or casual Windows programming."
C# '08: "A great combination of power and productivity for the Windows developer."
It should be obvious that by being developed by two different camps, each will inject their own philosophy, with different ideas of how their language should be, what features work for them, what would benefit the target audience the most, etc. Not necessarily the most powerful to develop with.
Of course it's obvious microsoft may tend to lean on the C# side (you seriously can't forget the aura Visual Basic left behind, plus C# has a load of java nuts and people who were disappointed with C++ .NET) so I agree with Warrior. Not to the extent he does, though.
C'mon, no politics threads on x86, so you bring your ranting and raving over here? Try making a productive post once in a while. I don't really see anything going on here except your e-peenor extending.

[Warrior]

I don't understand why Warrior fails to see that they - as two separate languages - have different goals and audiences. Even the Express websites highlight this fundamental difference in the product descriptions.
Visual Basic '08: "Productivity that is ideal for first time or casual Windows programming."
C# '08: "A great combination of power and productivity for the Windows developer."
It should be obvious that by being developed by two different camps, each will inject their own philosophy, with different ideas of how their language should be, what features work for them, what would benefit the target audience the most, etc. Not necessarily the most powerful to develop with.
Of course it's obvious microsoft may tend to lean on the C# side (you seriously can't forget the aura Visual Basic left behind, plus C# has a load of java nuts and people who were disappointed with C++ .NET) so I agree with Warrior. Not to the extent he does, though.
C'mon, no politics threads on x86, so you bring your ranting and raving over here? Try making a productive post once in a while. I don't really see anything going on here except your e-peenor extending.

tl;dr I reach the same conclusion Warrior reached, only I inject large amounts of stupid inbetween.

edit: ew you browse x86, yuck, ban it.

[brew]

I figured I'd get a stupid response.
Oh well, I think you're just butthurt about being trolled. How does it feel to be trolled, troll?

[Yegg]

Regardless what anyone thinks, we need threads with content like this. When two intelligent people such as MyndFyre and Warrior debate on a topic where they both know a great deal of info on, others can learn from it -- which is largely what this forum has been used for.

[Warrior]

Well, my original point (Due to what I was led to believe by another article) might have been a little over the top, so Myndy is correct in that there's much less of a rift than I thought.

As for brew, I really do not pay him any mind, he strikes me as pedantic, though I'm not even sure that applies because it requires him to actually be intelligent. Ah well.

[brew]

Oh come on, get real Yegg. The activity should lie within the new members. Unfortunately, the only new members on this board are:
70%: People who want help with D2GS packet compression, so they can make d2 botz to farm items.
20%: People who want help with making a winbot, and/or battle.net loader robot.
10%: People who see vL as this amazing and active clan, and figure they'd sign up for the hell of it and never post.

[Yegg]

Oh come on, get real Yegg. The activity should lie within the new members. Unfortunately, the only new members on this board are:
70%: People who want help with D2GS packet compression, so they can make d2 botz to farm items.
20%: People who want help with making a winbot, and/or battle.net loader robot.
10%: People who see vL as this amazing and active clan, and figure they'd sign up for the hell of it and never post.

So why even bring this up? It seems like all the newest members just learned partial English three weeks ago anyway. The existing (and mainly longterm members) are the ones continuing to keep some kind of useful content on the website. They do this by threads like this, and by answering an occasional question by a newcomer (which are extremely rare now) or existing member.

[brew]

Then it's settled. We argue with eachother.

[MyndFyre]

Then it's settled. We argue with eachother.

No we don't.

[Barabajagal]

Brew, shut up.
Warrior, stop arguing against the existence of a language you don't like. Why do you pretend to care? You know you don't.
Mynd, you're a moderator, aren't you? Why are you allowing this kind of off-topic crap in the thread of someone asking for knowledge that this site is used for?

This is ridiculous.

[brew]

Shut up andy, flow with it or be a sore thumb. But seriously. I don't see anything wrong with off topic crap when it's the only crap we have to work with.

[Yegg]

Shut up andy, flow with it or be a sore thumb. But seriously. I don't see anything wrong with off topic crap when it's the only crap we have to work with.

Agreed. Off-topic content is good for now, considering without it the current forum activity would decrease significantly.

[MyndFyre]

Mynd, you're a moderator, aren't you? Why are you allowing this kind of off-topic crap in the thread of someone asking for knowledge that this site is used for?

Not a moderator of this forum, no.  But a lot of this discussion, while off-topic for the particular thread, isn't necessarily off-topic for the forum.  So, meh.