Status of Iraq

[Adron]

I never stated that other people don't share your opinion. If you lack the understanding of what I meant when I said "your personal opinion" let me clarify.

I did not mean that it's solely yours; I said that it was your personal opinion to differentiate it from my personal opinion. What you should do is back up this statement: "Although, with the differences between American culture and everywhere else, it is quite possible that slinging mud on your opponents is accepted practise over there."

The chain started with this:

And what do you mean by "sink"? Please don't give me your opinion of what's right and wrong since I do not care much for it.

So, here you are saying that you do not care for my opinion of what is right and wrong (presumably it is unique?). My response - proceeding to give examples showing that I am not alone in my opinion of personal assaults being inappropriate.

However, there may be a difference in culture. From what I have seen (from American elections), "slinging mud" on your opponents is much more common over there than it is here. And "slinging mud" is not giving people as bad a reputation there as it would here.

What would be the reason for forbidding that? Was it morally wrong to serve in Waffen SS? Would you say that all germans should be forbidden to talk about morality? Obviously, all americans would have to be forbidden from talking about morality, since they are the only ones ever to drop an a-bomb?

Forbidding this would prevent you from being a hypocrite. I don't see any Germans arguing with me about how we should treat people.

And what would make me a hypocrite?

It's funny you mention the a-bomb. I recently watched a program on the history channel where they were discussing how the dropping of the a-bomb had saved more American and Japanese lives than it destroyed. By dropping the a-bomb America was able to put a quick end to the war instead of prolonging it for many more months. Because of this there was no need for American troops to invade Japan and fight many more battles where many civilian and military lives would have been lost.

That, is open to debate. A commonly expressed view is that even though the first bomb may have helped prevent the need for an invasion, the second bomb did not. America had Japan beat already. Both bombs also cause suffering to this day. An invasion and lost lives then would not have caused radiation poisoning today.

There is nothing you have said so far that would sway me in believing in what you believe.
The only way you can convince me is by proving to me that more people in the world believe that Americans are brainwashed and everyone else knows more about Americans than Americans do.

You have not provided any factual evidence to support your argument.

My strategy would be to show that generally the best analysis of any system is done by an outside observer. You have not provided any factual evidence to support that an observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system.

I did not ask for an objective analysis of you, I asked for your deepest thoughts and feelings. Answer the question. Would I ask you or your friend?

You should ask a friend, as I myself would not reveal my deepest thoughts and feelings to you. Irrelevant question though - we are not looking for the deepest thoughts and feelings of America, we are looking for an objective analysis. If you suspected I was brainwashed, would you ask me whether I was brainwashed, or would you look to have an objective analysis performed by someone else?

I have never acknowledged your superiority to anyone. Mocking you because you try to pass your opinion as some professional opinion is not considered acknowledging your superiority.

Resorting to mocking can be seen as a sign of surrender in facts.

[iago]

Haha, good job to both of you, especially Adron.  I think that Adron's use of humour is much more effective than Invert's use of anger/hatred/superiority.  Both are falacies, but Adron's is funner to read.

Anyway,

If you wanted an objective analysis of me, I would recommend that you have someone other than myself perform the analysis yes. And thank you for acknowledging my superiority.

I did not ask for an objective analysis of you, I asked for your deepest thoughts and feelings. Answer the question. Would I ask you or your friend?

Both aspects are important.  It's possible that some person (or country) is a complete asshole, but doesn't realize it.  No matter what thoughts and feelings they have, everybody else thinks they're an asshole.  That's the type of appraisel I was trying to get to.  I don't care how the person or country feels on the inside, or how they justify what they do, or whether or not they're totally ignorant to what they do; I care about, as Adron said, an objective analysis. 

Of course, Adron posted basically saying that while I was typing..  But that's ok!

[Grok]

Today the democrats invoked "Rule 21" (I dont know) which apparently allowed them a confidential closed session of Congress for a couple hours.  During it they agreed to assign 3 democratic and 3 republican senators to investigate who knew what when where how and why about the pre-intelligence for the Iraq invasion.

However, my point in writing this is I heard Senator Harry Reid, minority leader, explaining why he called for it.  Although he appeared less than composed, he was impassioned and for the first time in many years, I actually believed every word that a congressman had to say.  I will have to learn more about this person.  I have never been a Democrat, started out Republican and later realized I was really Libertarian.  This Senator Reid is very interesting.  I'm going to learn about his positions on various matters.  He might restore my belief that there are some congressmen who care about the country more than they care about their party, self preservation, etc.

[CrAz3D]

Saw that too, should be interesting to see what is turned up in the end

[Invert]

So, here you are saying that you do not care for my opinion of what is right and wrong (presumably it is unique?). My response - proceeding to give examples showing that I am not alone in my opinion of personal assaults being inappropriate.

Right, this is still irrelevant as I refuted his claims of my, as he put it, false assumptions. The personal attack came as a bonus, I stated this before. What I did not state was the reason behind the personal attack. It was suppose to invoke feelings of embarrassment, insecurity and doubt to prevent that poster from posting again. As far as I know it worked.

And what would make me a hypocrite?

You personally, maybe. As a representative of a country that has done injustice towards humanity, yes. For you to talk about how I should treat someone better makes you a hypocrite. Maybe before telling me to treat people better you should protest the big Nazi movement a.k.a. National Socialist Front/The Nationalsocialistisk Front in your country.

Have you ever treated someone with disrespect, or have you been rude to anyone before?

That, is open to debate. A commonly expressed view is that even though the first bomb may have helped prevent the need for an invasion, the second bomb did not. America had Japan beat already. Both bombs also cause suffering to this day. An invasion and lost lives then would not have caused radiation poisoning today.

Were you misinformed? Japan did not surrender after the 1st bomb. There was a need for the second one to convince them to surrender. We had to convince the Japanese that the first bomb was not one of a kind and that we had more for the reasons that the Japanese thought that the first bomb was it and that they had survived the worst. Realizing that we had more they were convinced and surrendered.

What I really want to see from you is some facts where there is still physical suffering going on now in Japan because of those bombs. I just don't know anything about this.

My strategy would be to show that generally the best analysis of any system is done by an outside observer. You have not provided any factual evidence to support that an observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system.

I never argued with you that observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system. My argument is that an observer outside the system is not better in providing objective analysis. I think there is a need for both. An inside and an outside source put together can provide the best objective analysis.

Resorting to mocking can be seen as a sign of surrender in facts.

Or just a way to poke fun at someone.

[iago]

You personally, maybe. As a representative of a country that has done injustice towards humanity, yes. For you to talk about how I should treat someone better makes you a hypocrite. Maybe before telling me to treat people better you should protest the big Nazi movement a.k.a. National Socialist Front/The Nationalsocialistisk Front in your country.

Do you agree with everything your country's ever done?  You said earlier in this thread that you disagree with originally going into Iraq.  Should we all hold you personally responsible for your country doing it?

That, is open to debate. A commonly expressed view is that even though the first bomb may have helped prevent the need for an invasion, the second bomb did not. America had Japan beat already. Both bombs also cause suffering to this day. An invasion and lost lives then would not have caused radiation poisoning today.

Were you misinformed? Japan did not surrender after the 1st bomb. There was a need for the second one to convince them to surrender. We had to convince the Japanese that the first bomb was not one of a kind and that we had more for the reasons that the Japanese thought that the first bomb was it and that they had survived the worst. Realizing that we had more they were convinced and surrendered.

What I really want to see from you is some facts where there is still physical suffering going on now in Japan because of those bombs. I just don't know anything about this.

I'd like to see facts from both of you.  Both on when exactly the Japanese surrendered, and also the suffering that is going on.  And also not from a strongly pro- or anti-American source :-)

[Invert]

Do you agree with everything your country's ever done?  You said earlier in this thread that you disagree with originally going into Iraq.  Should we all hold you personally responsible for your country doing it?

I don't agree with everything my country did. Yes I did not agree with going to war with Iraq the way we did. I should not be personally accountable for the way my country went to war with Iraq.

What I would be personally accountable for is being a hypocrite if I started talking to people from some other country telling them that they should not go to war with another country (hypothetical situation).

I'd like to see facts from both of you.  Both on when exactly the Japanese surrendered, and also the suffering that is going on.  And also not from a strongly pro- or anti-American source :-)

August 6 1945
US drops the atomic bomb on Hiroshima

August 9 1945
US drops the second atomic bomb on Nagasaki

September 2 1945
Japan signs unconditional surrender


Here is the source, it's a good read for those that don't know about this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/6/newsid_3602000/3602189.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_3580000/3580143.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/2/newsid_3582000/3582545.stm

"The Americans have also warned the Japanese people that further attacks of a similar nature will be made unless they petition their emperor to surrender.

More than three million leaflets were dropped over the country today from American aeroplanes warning the Japanese people that more atomic weapons would be used "again and again" to destroy the country unless they ended the war forthwith."

[Adron]

Right, this is still irrelevant as I refuted his claims of my, as he put it, false assumptions. The personal attack came as a bonus, I stated this before. What I did not state was the reason behind the personal attack. It was suppose to invoke feelings of embarrassment, insecurity and doubt to prevent that poster from posting again. As far as I know it worked.

Ah. What you may have missed is that personal assaults is enough to have you immediately removed from the forum. You may not know before it hits you... In addition, it costs loss of focus on the issue, and reduces your credibility.

You personally, maybe. As a representative of a country that has done injustice towards humanity, yes. For you to talk about how I should treat someone better makes you a hypocrite. Maybe before telling me to treat people better you should protest the big Nazi movement a.k.a. National Socialist Front/The Nationalsocialistisk Front in your country.

Maybe before I tell you to protest the nazi movement in your country, I should protest the nazi movement in mine. I see no problem telling you to treat someone better though?

Have you ever treated someone with disrespect, or have you been rude to anyone before?

Oh, surely. I think most people have.

Were you misinformed? Japan did not surrender after the 1st bomb. There was a need for the second one to convince them to surrender. We had to convince the Japanese that the first bomb was not one of a kind and that we had more for the reasons that the Japanese thought that the first bomb was it and that they had survived the worst. Realizing that we had more they were convinced and surrendered.

What I really want to see from you is some facts where there is still physical suffering going on now in Japan because of those bombs. I just don't know anything about this.

There are many different theories about it. How did you know 3 days after the first bomb that Japan was not going to surrender after it? The first bomb was dropped on the 6th, the second bomb was dropped on the 9th, Japan surrendered on the 15th. Shouldn't you have been dropping another bomb on the 12th? If the reason for keeping up the bomb dropping was because the first bomb was not enough, I do not see how 3 days would be enough to determine that. With the methods of communications available back then, 3 days is a very short time.

The longest lasting killing effect is leukemia. Studies on children to those who survived the bomb have indicated trouble with learning / reduced intelligence, etc too though. Using weapons with a DOT effect on civilians is eww. It's not the last time the US has done that either, just think Vietnam War and Agent Orange...

I never argued with you that observer inside a system is capable of providing objective analysis without being affected by the system. My argument is that an observer outside the system is not better in providing objective analysis. I think there is a need for both. An inside and an outside source put together can provide the best objective analysis.

The system's effect on an inside observer is harder to compensate for than the lack of information of an outside observer though...

Resorting to mocking can be seen as a sign of surrender in facts.

Or just a way to poke fun at someone.

That too, up to interpretation though

[jigsaw]

Let me whittle this down.  America is getting eaten from the inside out. Merle Haggard says it best in this little ditty called "Fighting side of me."

I hear people talkin' bad
About the way we have to live here, in this country
Harpin' on the wars we fight
An' grippin' 'bout the way things oughta be

An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides an'
Standin' up for things they believe in
When they're runnin' down my country, man
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down the way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
If you're runnin' down my country man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

I read about some squirrely guy
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'
And I wonder just how long
The rest of us can count on bein' free

They love our milk an' honey
But they preach about some other way, of livin'
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down our way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
When you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down our way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
If you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

[Arta]

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had.
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty fuckin' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom.
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little pussy
'Cause the only reason that you're here.
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a have to hook'in fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five


*snicker*