New Pope

[Arta]

Hazard: Please stop making personal attacks. I don't understand why you feel that it's necessary to be so aggressive all the time.

[iago]

Hazard -- you're absolutely right, women are different creatures who aren't as smart as us men.  They shouldn't be allowed to drive cards or vote. 

No, they shouldn't drive cards.

Did I say it was my view? Its their position. I'm so sick of this stupid shit, it shows up everywhere here and in society. We should go out of our way so everybody can do anything that they want. The church chooses that men should be in the position, its tradition. Its a tradition, its that simple.

Driving cards might be painful :/

My point was (I think.. it's been awhile now) that the church should re-evaluate some of its traditions and be a bit more modern.

So you're saying that, since premarital sex is popular in our society, the church should accept it?

Yes.  "You don't win friends with salad".  I forget the other saying.. "You attract more ants with sugar than ____"..

[Adron]

Comment #1: There is no real difference between using a condom when having sex and not having sex at all.

Comment #2: Is the Catholic God so weak that a couple micron of rubber are enough to ruin his plans? Do you honestly think a condom is going to make a difference to God? If God wants you to have a child, he'll make the condom break.

Comment #3: Again, catholic couples must have sex very rigorously well-planned, if all sex is to result in conception.

The point is that to show God that you are trying to misuse what he has given you is wrong. Your argument was bullshit, and if you weren't a logical android you'd know that.

All three points are good enough to want a response. Conception is not guaranteed just because you're not using a condom. And non-conception is not guaranteed just because you are using a condom. If there's a higher power controlling things, then non-conception while not using a condom would be that power's will? But the same thing applies to non-conception while using a condom.

You now speak of misusing what you have been given. If God has given you the ability to feel pleasure having sex, then not having sex for pleasure would obviously be misusing what God has given you. Unless you want to claim that what man has was created by evolution, and not given to you by God?

[Hazard]

Hazard -- you're absolutely right, women are different creatures who aren't as smart as us men.  They shouldn't be allowed to drive cards or vote. 

No, they shouldn't drive cards.

Did I say it was my view? Its their position. I'm so sick of this stupid shit, it shows up everywhere here and in society. We should go out of our way so everybody can do anything that they want. The church chooses that men should be in the position, its tradition. Its a tradition, its that simple.

Driving cards might be painful :/

My point was (I think.. it's been awhile now) that the church should re-evaluate some of its traditions and be a bit more modern.

So you're saying that, since premarital sex is popular in our society, the church should accept it?

Yes.  "You don't win friends with salad".  I forget the other saying.. "You attract more ants with sugar than ____"..

So if raping little girls became the cultural norm, the church should accept it? The fact that the Lord God HIMSELF declared adultry to be a sin cannot be changed. Premarital sex is just as much a sin now as it was in the 1st century and that won't change just because its normal.

[Hazard]

Comment #1: There is no real difference between using a condom when having sex and not having sex at all.

Comment #2: Is the Catholic God so weak that a couple micron of rubber are enough to ruin his plans? Do you honestly think a condom is going to make a difference to God? If God wants you to have a child, he'll make the condom break.

Comment #3: Again, catholic couples must have sex very rigorously well-planned, if all sex is to result in conception.

The point is that to show God that you are trying to misuse what he has given you is wrong. Your argument was bullshit, and if you weren't a logical android you'd know that.

All three points are good enough to want a response. Conception is not guaranteed just because you're not using a condom. And non-conception is not guaranteed just because you are using a condom. If there's a higher power controlling things, then non-conception while not using a condom would be that power's will? But the same thing applies to non-conception while using a condom.

You now speak of misusing what you have been given. If God has given you the ability to feel pleasure having sex, then not having sex for pleasure would obviously be misusing what God has given you. Unless you want to claim that what man has was created by evolution, and not given to you by God?

I'll have a talk with a faith and beliefs teacher at my school to get a response to your specific arguments because they are much more qualified to speak to the issue.

The position of the church is quite simply that the will of God cannot and should not attempt to be impeded by birth control.

[Adron]

The position of the church is quite simply that the will of God cannot and should not attempt to be impeded by birth control.

OK. I suppose the most important part is that of how family planning can be acceptable but not birth control, since they're essentially the same thing. If God doesn't mind you not having children, why does God mind you not having children?

The remainder is more like:

Since the will of God cannot be impeded by birth control, a thin rubber layer is nothing to the power of God Almighty, what difference does it make?

And following from that, if having sex that's not likely to generate children (i.e. with condoms) is a sin then having sex that's not likely to generate children is always a sin, as in, sex while pregnant, or sex other than the two-four days in the period where the egg is available and conception possible. A faithful catholic can only have sex a few specific days per month?

[Hazard]

OK. I suppose the most important part is that of how family planning can be acceptable but not birth control, since they're essentially the same thing. If God doesn't mind you not having children, why does God mind you not having children?

Thats the point! God WANTS you to have children! What the church says you should not to is try to get in the way of God's will!

Since the will of God cannot be impeded by birth control, a thin rubber layer is nothing to the power of God Almighty, what difference does it make?

Adron, you're missing the point. The point is that you are attempting to play God when using birth control. You are conciously attempting to avoid the NATURAL process of things. Its not that He can't do it, its a question of why you would dare to stop His will!

And following from that, if having sex that's not likely to generate children (i.e. with condoms) is a sin then having sex that's not likely to generate children is always a sin, as in, sex while pregnant, or sex other than the two-four days in the period where the egg is available and conception possible. A faithful catholic can only have sex a few specific days per month?

No, the church in no way tries to tell you when you can and cannot have sex. The Church stands by the fact that the purpose of sex is conception, and that when you impede that you impede the will of God. Using outside sources in an attempt to block God's will is sinful in the Church's view. They aren't dictating when and where or how. I don't know the Church's policy on sex during pregnancy.

[iago]

Hazard -- you're absolutely right, women are different creatures who aren't as smart as us men.  They shouldn't be allowed to drive cards or vote. 

No, they shouldn't drive cards.

Did I say it was my view? Its their position. I'm so sick of this stupid shit, it shows up everywhere here and in society. We should go out of our way so everybody can do anything that they want. The church chooses that men should be in the position, its tradition. Its a tradition, its that simple.

Driving cards might be painful :/

My point was (I think.. it's been awhile now) that the church should re-evaluate some of its traditions and be a bit more modern.

So you're saying that, since premarital sex is popular in our society, the church should accept it?

Yes.  "You don't win friends with salad".  I forget the other saying.. "You attract more ants with sugar than ____"..

So if raping little girls became the cultural norm, the church should accept it? The fact that the Lord God HIMSELF declared adultry to be a sin cannot be changed. Premarital sex is just as much a sin now as it was in the 1st century and that won't change just because its normal.

I doubt that would ever become accepted, but if it was accepted by the general population (you, me, and everybody else), then yes, it should be accepted by the church.

Where exactly did God declare premarital sex a sin? 

[Mitosis]

It's in the Bible somewhere, you can't have sex until you are married.

[Yegg]

In the Bible somewhere? It is against the 10 Commandments written by God to commit adultery. Keep up the good work Hazard, .

[Adron]

Thats the point! God WANTS you to have children! What the church says you should not to is try to get in the way of God's will!

You said family planning was ok....

And following from that, if having sex that's not likely to generate children (i.e. with condoms) is a sin then having sex that's not likely to generate children is always a sin, as in, sex while pregnant, or sex other than the two-four days in the period where the egg is available and conception possible. A faithful catholic can only have sex a few specific days per month?

No, the church in no way tries to tell you when you can and cannot have sex. The Church stands by the fact that the purpose of sex is conception, and that when you impede that you impede the will of God. Using outside sources in an attempt to block God's will is sinful in the Church's view. They aren't dictating when and where or how. I don't know the Church's policy on sex during pregnancy.

You'll have to try to straighten out some things here. Is family planning ok (you said earlier that it was)?

If family planning is OK, and you plan not to have a child right now, then why can't you have sex using condoms?

[Ban]

Hazard: Please stop making personal attacks. I don't understand why you feel that it's necessary to be so aggressive all the time.

Hazard, you should also avoid the TRIPLE POSTING.

[Arta]

Hazard: Please stop making personal attacks. I don't understand why you feel that it's necessary to be so aggressive all the time.

Hazard, you should also avoid the TRIPLE POSTING.

I think that's ok, as a way to separate responses to multiple people. Reading through one monolithic post is harder than reading several smaller ones.

[iago]

In the Bible somewhere? It is against the 10 Commandments written by God to commit adultery. Keep up the good work Hazard, .

According to dictionary.com, "Aldultery" is "Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse."  I'm aware that that's a commandment (although I believe they were written by Moses, NOT God, but that's a technicallity).  Where in the bible does it say anything about pre-marital sex?  Or do you just believe everything you're told without checking?

There's a lot of stuff that I was told was in the bible (back when I went to Sunday School) which, upon further checking, isn't. 

[nslay]

2) sex for purposes other than procreation isn't morally right?

That's a strong stance. Do catholics actually stick to that? If you have sex only for the purpose of procreation, that would mean only once per month, at the right date calculated from the female's periods. And no sex while pregnant.

Adron, I must enlighten you because you are so obviuosly ignorant on this topic, I think we can agree on that.

The Catholic Church is against hindering the will of God. Family planning is acceptable in the Chruch's view because it in no way artifically hampers the process. True Catholics are faith bound to stick to it.

As I said, I'm not a Catholic. Its not my view, its theirs.

It has little to do with artificially hindering the process.  The catholics condemn birth control and contraception because it promotes objectificaion.  That is, you can use women for pleasure and women can use you for pleasure without consequence.  I believe it is human nature to take advantage of anything.  Clearly, we can see that in any case, it is wrong to use anyone.

I have no opinion regarding "marriage" of gays.  In fact, all I can say is that I believe that it is all a semantic war.  The Christians define marriage in a specific way and will not change it by their beliefs.  Regardless of what the government does, no church will grant marriage to gays and people in general will still shack up with each other married or not.  I can say that by our anatomy, homosexuality is abnormal,  there is no other way to look at it.  Now, you might say that it is normal for abnormalities to occurr, but the pure and simple fact founded by our anatomy strongly proves that homosexuality is abnormal.

Don't judge the church on the actions of a few.  Think of it as a country...you can't judge the country by the actions of a handful of its citizens or officials. 

This Pope is an intellectual, I think he will do a great job no matter how long he lives.  The mind is a very important tool and with a burden like that, it is necessary to be very thoughtful.  This man was the right hand of John Paul II.  Regarding his past (I don't know much about him), if he was apart of the nazis in one way or another, you have to remember that there was a lot of propoganda.  In fact, everything you hear on the news now could be propoganda and you might not even know it.

People do change, its fallacy to suggest that because of ones past crime, that he/she alone is always capable of committing that crime.  If you don't believe in determinism, then you affirm that we are all given freedom of choice.  By this reasoning, anyone is capable of anything, especially when you factor in circumstance.  We've already seen that our personality changes as we grow older and make mistakes.  This is not only true for us, but for animals as well.