cease fire, how long will it last?

[Hazard]

Put it this way: When terrorists kill civilians, it's awful. Nonetheless, that's what terrorists do, so it's not entirely unexpected. When the military of a country kill civilians without cause, as has uncontrivertably happened on more than one occasion, that's worse.

But the Israeli government shouldn't be able to do anything, because thats what they should expect from the terrorists? Its worse for one person to kill civilians then another person to kill civillians. Is it worse for a white person to kill a black person than it is for a black person to kill another black person?

[quasi-modo]

I have read nothing about this.

James Miller. He was shot by troops in gaza who claimed that he was in the direction of gunfire. This is lies. On the website created to campaign for an enquiry into his death, there was a video shot by one of his colleagues that showed the entire thing. James miller was murdered - pure and simple - and the IDF has done nothing about it. Unfortunately that website seems to have gone down now. The BBC page mentions some other similar incidents. HBO made a documentary about it called Death in Gaza, which I've not seen, but would be interested in watching.

BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2997525.stm

Google cache of the website, showing a timeline of events: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:2UzGbE1hiGYJ:www.justice4jamesmiller.com/timelines.htm+%22James+Miller%22+justice&hl=en

I tried to find another copy of the video but no luck.

I don't really want to discuss this because the entire topic just makes me angry. The behaviour of both sides is equally bad, but Isreal is a modern country. It should know better than to allow its military to murder civilians and shoot children. When these things happen, as they inevitably will occasionally, it should hold people accountable, and yet it never seems to. Half the time, the IDF are just as bad as the terrorists they claim to be hunting.

You act like the Israely military just goes out and kills people for the hell of it. I read the story and it sounds more like a screw up then a government's hidden agenda.

[dxoigmn]

Put it this way: When terrorists kill civilians, it's awful. Nonetheless, that's what terrorists do, so it's not entirely unexpected. When the military of a country kill civilians without cause, as has uncontrivertably happened on more than one occasion, that's worse.

But the Israeli government shouldn't be able to do anything, because thats what they should expect from the terrorists? Its worse for one person to kill civilians then another person to kill civillians. Is it worse for a white person to kill a black person than it is for a black person to kill another black person?

No, but if a people/person is going to act more civilized (i.e. Israel, Whites) then there are certain expections as compared to the ones they label "inferior" (i.e.  Terrorists/Blacks).

[Arta]

I have read nothing about this.

James Miller. He was shot by troops in gaza who claimed that he was in the direction of gunfire. This is lies. On the website created to campaign for an enquiry into his death, there was a video shot by one of his colleagues that showed the entire thing. James miller was murdered - pure and simple - and the IDF has done nothing about it. Unfortunately that website seems to have gone down now. The BBC page mentions some other similar incidents. HBO made a documentary about it called Death in Gaza, which I've not seen, but would be interested in watching.

BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2997525.stm

Google cache of the website, showing a timeline of events: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:2UzGbE1hiGYJ:www.justice4jamesmiller.com/timelines.htm+%22James+Miller%22+justice&hl=en

I tried to find another copy of the video but no luck.

I don't really want to discuss this because the entire topic just makes me angry. The behaviour of both sides is equally bad, but Isreal is a modern country. It should know better than to allow its military to murder civilians and shoot children. When these things happen, as they inevitably will occasionally, it should hold people accountable, and yet it never seems to. Half the time, the IDF are just as bad as the terrorists they claim to be hunting.

You act like the Israely military just goes out and kills people for the hell of it. I read the story and it sounds more like a screw up then a government's hidden agenda.

The military doesn't kill people for the hell of it, but some of their soldiers have, and the military doesn't seem to care.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Put it this way: When terrorists kill civilians, it's awful. Nonetheless, that's what terrorists do, so it's not entirely unexpected. When the military of a country kill civilians without cause, as has uncontrivertably happened on more than one occasion, that's worse.

But the Israeli government shouldn't be able to do anything, because thats what they should expect from the terrorists? Its worse for one person to kill civilians then another person to kill civillians. Is it worse for a white person to kill a black person than it is for a black person to kill another black person?

No, but if a people/person is going to act more civilized (i.e. Israel, Whites) then there are certain expections as compared to the ones they label "inferior" (i.e. Terrorists/Blacks).

bigot

[Hazard]

Adron and dxoigmn are arguing different rights and responsibilities for different people.

[Adron]

Adron and dxoigmn are arguing different rights and responsibilities for different people.

At one level yes, at another level no. Most importantly though, if you want people to support your fight against some groups because of the evil methods they use against you, you should not stoop to using similar evil methods yourself.

[quasi-modo]

I have read nothing about this.

James Miller. He was shot by troops in gaza who claimed that he was in the direction of gunfire. This is lies. On the website created to campaign for an enquiry into his death, there was a video shot by one of his colleagues that showed the entire thing. James miller was murdered - pure and simple - and the IDF has done nothing about it. Unfortunately that website seems to have gone down now. The BBC page mentions some other similar incidents. HBO made a documentary about it called Death in Gaza, which I've not seen, but would be interested in watching.

BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2997525.stm

Google cache of the website, showing a timeline of events: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:2UzGbE1hiGYJ:www.justice4jamesmiller.com/timelines.htm+%22James+Miller%22+justice&hl=en

I tried to find another copy of the video but no luck.

I don't really want to discuss this because the entire topic just makes me angry. The behaviour of both sides is equally bad, but Isreal is a modern country. It should know better than to allow its military to murder civilians and shoot children. When these things happen, as they inevitably will occasionally, it should hold people accountable, and yet it never seems to. Half the time, the IDF are just as bad as the terrorists they claim to be hunting.

You act like the Israely military just goes out and kills people for the hell of it. I read the story and it sounds more like a screw up then a government's hidden agenda.

The military doesn't kill people for the hell of it, but some of their soldiers have, and the military doesn't seem to care.

I would not say that at all. When a soldier gets out of line it really hurts Israel's image. Bad for PR. I am sure soldiers that get out of line are put back in their places. However, from the article in the OP, I would say it sounds more like a mistake then something that is deliberate.

[quasi-modo]

Adron and dxoigmn are arguing different rights and responsibilities for different people.

At one level yes, at another level no. Most importantly though, if you want people to support your fight against some groups because of the evil methods they use against you, you should not stoop to using similar evil methods yourself.

Israel is not using similar methods. Israel does not target civilians, they target militants. Yes militants often pose as civilians and the palestinian officials are going to spin it their way, but you do not see busses of palestinians getting blown up. The attacks by Israel are not random, they are well thought out for the most part and their is a definate target. Claims that they are just fireing at random at palestinians that I have heard in the past are very flase. Take the missile attacks they use, they are often against the leaders of terrorist groups and are very well planned and are often successful. There is a lot of spin thaat says because Israel has superior firepower they are just bullying the palestinians around.

[Hazard]

Adron, are you trying to say that we should not seek justice against people that have killed the innocent and pose a continuing threat? You're basically negating punishments. Israel doesn't have the right to kill terrorists because thats what the terrorists do, kill people? Is that seriously what you're getting across? You're saying that its okay for terrorists to kill innocent people because thats what terrorists do, but its not okay for the military to do it because the military's sole purpose is to kill terrorists and other threats?

[dxoigmn]

Adron and dxoigmn are arguing different rights and responsibilities for different people.

You just pulled a Hazard...oh wait you are Hazard.  Stop putting words in people's mouths.  I am not arguing for different rights, if anything I think everyone is equal.  BUT if a people are going to act more civlized than another (for example White people saying they're superior to Black people) then they'd had better act superior not not stoop to the level of the "inferior" (notice the quotes, they're very important) Blacks by committing those same acts Black commit becauase they are "inferior."

@Banana fanna fo fanna
Very insightful commentary on your half.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Adron and dxoigmn are arguing different rights and responsibilities for different people.

You just pulled a Hazard...oh wait you are Hazard. Stop putting words in people's mouths. I am not arguing for different rights, if anything I think everyone is equal. BUT if a people are going to act more civlized than another (for example White people saying they're superior to Black people) then they'd had better act superior not not stoop to the level of the "inferior" (notice the quotes, they're very important) Blacks by committing those same acts Black commit becauase they are "inferior."

@Banana fanna fo fanna
Very insightful commentary on your half.

dxoigmn: you are a bad person. Whoops, personal attack, sorry moderators.

Double standards perpetrated by the left wing european loving american hating scumbags will refuse to ever, EVER justify any action by anyone who is:

- white
- christian
- jewish
- pro-american

dxoigmn, people like you got Bush elected. thanks.

[Hazard]

You just pulled a Hazard...oh wait you are Hazard. 

Damn straight. Bring it son.

I am not arguing for different rights, if anything I think everyone is equal.  BUT if a people are going to act more civlized than another (for example White people saying they're superior to Black people) then they'd had better act superior not not stoop to the level of the "inferior" (notice the quotes, they're very important) Blacks by committing those same acts Black commit becauase they are "inferior."

I'm trying to make sense of the senseless here, so bear with me. I'm going to assume that you stand against the death penalty too, since it is in your eyes "stooping to their level" to kill somebody because they brutally took another person's life. I don't think that many right-minded people argue for that Black's are inferior to Whites. In fact, many of these right-minded people stand to abolish affirmative action because it permits a lower standard from the black community. The Israelis don't argue that the Palestinians are inferior to them either. They are merely stepping up to the plate to defend themselves from terrorists. But apparently going after people just because they killed your own innocent people isn't okay, because somehow you got the idea that they find themselves superior. You're just too stupid to even talk to at this point.

[Adron]

Adron, are you trying to say that we should not seek justice against people that have killed the innocent and pose a continuing threat? You're basically negating punishments. Israel doesn't have the right to kill terrorists because thats what the terrorists do, kill people? Is that seriously what you're getting across? You're saying that its okay for terrorists to kill innocent people because thats what terrorists do, but its not okay for the military to do it because the military's sole purpose is to kill terrorists and other threats?

Seeking justice is fine. Israel isn't seeking justice, they're just seeking revenge.

[quasi-modo]

Adron, are you trying to say that we should not seek justice against people that have killed the innocent and pose a continuing threat? You're basically negating punishments. Israel doesn't have the right to kill terrorists because thats what the terrorists do, kill people? Is that seriously what you're getting across? You're saying that its okay for terrorists to kill innocent people because thats what terrorists do, but its not okay for the military to do it because the military's sole purpose is to kill terrorists and other threats?

Seeking justice is fine. Israel isn't seeking justice, they're just seeking revenge.

Not really. Israel targets terrorist groups. They are not going for justice against the bombers because they are already dead. They are not going for revenge either. What they are going for is prevention. They are trying to take out the terrorists and their leaders before they can strike.