cease fire, how long will it last?

[Arta]

God that's just so.. arrogant. You tell us not to speak about US problems because of not understanding them, while in the same breath claiming to have the same knowedge about Europe that we supposedly lack about America.

You don't know what you are talking about if you claim that Europe is an anti-american propaganda machine, and as for 'insulent'.. I assume you mean 'insular'. If so, that's just so obviously wrong that I'm not evern going to justify it with a response.

[Arta]

Why smaller? Please explain your reasoning. Even the moderates of which you speak have limits.

Okay, you have plenty of people in the muslim world who are pissed off about all the fighting. They realize that this militant extremist group is really a problem. Some speak out against it. They are going to encourage people not to become terrorists. When a country goes in to fight the terrorists those non-terrorists are going to be all pissed off at the terrorists for bringing us in. I have heard interviews on the news of some Iraqi people who were really pissed off that we were there, but they were not pissed at us, but they were pissed at the insurgent fighters.

I think that if that were true, there wouldn't be any more Iraqi insurgents to fight. There's no doubt that our (mostly your) militaries have killed a lot of them, and yet the fight rages on, over a year later.

[Adron]

You're blinded by the anti-American propoganda machine that is most of Europe. You don't get to read what happens here after it has been washed through the insulent minds of your nation's media. You have no idea what goes on here. You think you know, but the fact is you don't

You're probably right that you know more about what happens in America than I do. At the same time you know less about what happens outside America. Which is actually the topic of this thread.

[quasi-modo]

Why smaller? Please explain your reasoning. Even the moderates of which you speak have limits.

Okay, you have plenty of people in the muslim world who are pissed off about all the fighting. They realize that this militant extremist group is really a problem. Some speak out against it. They are going to encourage people not to become terrorists. When a country goes in to fight the terrorists those non-terrorists are going to be all pissed off at the terrorists for bringing us in. I have heard interviews on the news of some Iraqi people who were really pissed off that we were there, but they were not pissed at us, but they were pissed at the insurgent fighters.

I think that if that were true, there wouldn't be any more Iraqi insurgents to fight. There's no doubt that our (mostly your) militaries have killed a lot of them, and yet the fight rages on, over a year later.

That can be explained because a lot of the former Iraqi military joined the insurgency. Also a whole lot of rebel fighters entered Iraq as the invasion ended to aid the insurgents.

[Hazard]

You're blinded by the anti-American propoganda machine that is most of Europe. You don't get to read what happens here after it has been washed through the insulent minds of your nation's media. You have no idea what goes on here. You think you know, but the fact is you don't

You're probably right that you know more about what happens in America than I do. At the same time you know less about what happens outside America. Which is actually the topic of this thread.

You're saying that a non-American would know more about a non-related 3rd party? Thats just stupid.

[Adron]

You're probably right that you know more about what happens in America than I do. At the same time you know less about what happens outside America. Which is actually the topic of this thread.

You're saying that a non-American would know more about a non-related 3rd party? Thats just stupid.

No, it's true. Among other things, Sweden had the greatest share of voting Iraqis compared to population outside Iraq itself. The USA is far far away from the center of things.

[Hazard]

So all 6 Iraqis living in Sweden voted in the election? Whoop de doo? Yea, the economic and military center of the entire world is certainly way far away from whats going on in the world.

[Hazard]

Has anybody noticed the way all of these threads seem to go? Its the young Americans arguing with the misinformed liberal, the Swede, and the Brit. The Lib, Swede, and Brit all being convinced of their own superiority and infoulability with all sorts of slanted and misinterpreted "logic" as they call it to support their arguments, but with very little else to back up what they believe? Case in the point, the Swedes argument that a Sweedish person would know more about, say, a Cambodian person because Americans don't know what happens outside their borders. Thats the stupidest thing that I've ever heard, and to anyone not anti-American biased on the outisde, it would seem equally as retarded.

[Adron]

So all 6 Iraqis living in Sweden voted in the election? Whoop de doo? Yea, the economic and military center of the entire world is certainly way far away from whats going on in the world.

Yes, it is very far away from what goes on in the world for that exact reason. People living there think they're the center of the world and that nothing happens outside. For that reason, people living outside the USA have a much better view of the world.

I'm having trouble finding an online url for the numbers of voters. Found one reference saying USA had 12,079 registered voters and Sweden had 14,008. But that was before they extended the registration period.

Anyway, putting those in relation to the populations of the countries, 8,986,400 for Sweden, and 293,027,571 for the United States, you find the registered voter share at that time being 1.5 per mille in Sweden and 0.04 per mille in the United States. Rather big difference, eh?

More than 6 voters in Sweden....

[Arta]

slanted and misinterpreted "logic"

If you think it's slanted and misinterpreted, you can show how. That's the wonderful thing about logic. Logic is, well, logical. That's the whole point.

[Hazard]

Yes, being the center puts you outside the loop. Explain that logic to me? Everybody in the United States understands what happens on the outside. The fact of the matter it is YOU ADRON who is the ignorant one. Why you ask? Because you have no idea what happens inside the United States. Have you ever been here? How much time have you spent in our society? What first hand experience do you have? What second hand experience do you have? Or is everything you know based off of what you see on TV and read in the Sweedish Newspapers? Admit it.

Could it be, Adron, that Iraqi leadership matters very little to Iraqi-Americans? Perhaps they are totally content here where they are, and weren't willing to go to the "polls" and make an educated decision? They aren't in the thick of whats going on and guess what? Neither are the Iraqis in Sweden. I sincerely hope the votes of Iraqis who have made permenant homes in Sweden with no current ties to Iraq were not the difference in any of the elections.

Arta, I cannot teach the blind. A number of you are completely blind to any sort of logic that is not your own. Your little terrorism exists therefore counter-terrorism doesnt work therefore counter-terrorism is a waste of time "logical" deduction is a prime example. You refuse to see how ridiculous things that you say are. You can say all you want about how you think Americans, and even myself, are uneducated or unqualified to speak as long as you recognize that you are no more educated, and no more qualified. If you feel you are, you're not fooling anybody but yourself with the possible addition of the before mentioned people.

[Arta]

I love it when people put words in my mouth. No, really.

1. You seem to have difficulty accepting that other people have other points of view. I understand your point of view, and I accept it, I just don't agree with it. You, however, seem to think that I am 'blind' because I disagree with you. Sorry to say it again, but: get over yourself. You're not that important. You don't hold the answers to all the problems in the world. To imply that you are in a position to 'teach' anyone is thoroughly arrogant. Similarly, to imply that the US or any nation has all the answers is equally as arrogant.

2. I believe my logic to be sound. If you find fault with that, explain why. Don't just say "it's wrong", claim it to be ridiculous, put words in my mouth in an attempt to make me look bad, and claim that anyone that agrees with me is "foolish". Those things are tactics used by stupid people who are incapable of making a coherant argument, and you are not one of those people. Don't act like it.

3. As mentioned, don't put words in my mouth, thanks. I have never claimed that Americans (as a group) are unqualified or uneducated to speak about anything (whatsoever). To claim as much would be patently absurd.

[Hazard]

I love it when you put words in my mouth. No, really I love it.

1. You seem to have trouble accepting that you are foulable. You also do not hold any of the answers to these world problems, so you can get over your own *tiny* little ego. I view teaching as the bringing of enlightinment, something that you make impossible.

2. It is impossible for me to prove to you that your logic is wrong. Your attempts to prove to me that my logic doesn't make sense should prove that fact to you. You do the same thing, you tell me my logic doesn't make sense or that "its not the same thing" but don't offer any intelligent feedback.

3.

3. As mentioned, don't put words in my mouth, thanks. I have never claimed that Americans (as a group) are unqualified or uneducated to speak about anything (whatsoever). To claim as much would be patently absurd.

Ditto to yourself. In that very passage you put words in MY mouth, thanks. So you agree with me that Adron's accusation, which can be read here, that Americans are less qualified to speak on the topic of a third party simply because they are Americans? Also, do you condem Adron's accusation that can be read here which accuses myself of being "colored by American propaganda"?

[Arta]

1. Those are unfounded assumptions. I have never claimed to have all the answers, nor that I am infallible. It's amusing that you talk about my 'tiny little ego' and then credit me with sufficient importance to prevent the attainment of enlightmentment.

2. Actually, I think its quite easy to show that your logic might be wrong. We've been killing terrorists for some time now, it doesn't appear to be working. In cases where we have stopped killing terrorists, they seem to have stopped killing us, too, after a necessary period of adjustment. Of course, there can be no formal, logical proof in any of these debates, because the variables involved are too numerous. That said, opinions can still be stated in a logical manner, which allows them to be criticised in a logical manner too. I'm hoping that such an approach will avoid tedium. No specific objection to my argument has yet been offered.

3.  I am not putting words into your mouth. You claimed that I have said, or implied:

You can say all you want about how you think Americans, and even myself, are uneducated or unqualified to speak as long as you recognize that you are no more educated, and no more qualified.

I have never said or implied that, because I don't think that's true.

4. I'm not going to 'condemn' anyone. Adron is entitled to his opinion. We're not joined at the hip. On this occasion, we appear to disagree.

[Adron]

Ditto to yourself. In that very passage you put words in MY mouth, thanks. So you agree with me that Adron's accusation, which can be read here, that Americans are less qualified to speak on the topic of a third party simply because they are Americans? Also, do you condem Adron's accusation that can be read here which accuses myself of being "colored by American propaganda"?

The post you claim to be accusing yourself of being "colored by American propaganda" is:

There are no secret police. Everything is being done in the public eye and everybody has to answer to somebody. Your conspiracy theory is wrong. The fact is, Adron and Arta aren't even qualified to speak on any of this because they don't know anything about American policy. I doubt either of you have any sort of experience in the field and have never studied American foreign policy with any sort of depth.

I don't see that accusing you of being colored by anything. I do see it accusing Adron and Arta of knowing nothing about American policy.

Further, I claimed that you knew less about some Iraqi events than I do. You claimed not, but then helped support my claim here:

So all 6 Iraqis living in Sweden voted in the election? Whoop de doo? Yea, the economic and military center of the entire world is certainly way far away from whats going on in the world.

The correct numbers for the Iraqi election were posted in the local newspaper that I picked up on the train. I can only assume that either they were not posted in your local newspaper, or you didn't read them, which does support my point about Swedes getting to be more well-informed about affairs outside the USA than Americans.

Also, given that Sweden's population is made up of about 1% exile Iraqis and the share of exile Iraqis in the USA is ten times less, it makes perfect sense that there will be more information about it floating around here.