Valhalla Legends Archive

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 01:24 PM
The needs of the many are safety and security of the masses against the violent minority. Guns have proven time and again to be the most effective and logical source of defense. End of story.

The needs of the many are safety and security from the violent minority. Guns have proven time and again to be the biggest source of violent death. End of story.

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:28 PM

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 01:24 PM
The needs of the many are safety and security of the masses against the violent minority. Guns have proven time and again to be the most effective and logical source of defense. End of story.

The needs of the many are safety and security from the violent minority. Guns have proven time and again to be the biggest source of violent death. End of story.

Both of those seem to be true. Something interesting I saw once (cartoon or movie) was a world where everyone carried a rifle, and if someone killed or shot someone then everyone around that person shot the person right away. Althought this could potentially cause huge problems I saw it and thought it made some sense, why would you shoot someone when everyone around you can shoot you for doing it?

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:28 PM

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 01:24 PM
The needs of the many are safety and security of the masses against the violent minority. Guns have proven time and again to be the most effective and logical source of defense. End of story.

The needs of the many are safety and security from the violent minority. Guns have proven time and again to be the biggest source of violent death. End of story.

The use of violence is a neccessary evil. Why can't you see that? If we banned firearms, a new tactic would come out. Then you would denounce that, and seek to ban it. Then when it was banned, yet another new tactic would come out, and you would denounce it... and so on and so forth. Reality check Adron.

Quote from: j0k3r on March 07, 2004, 01:30 PM
Both of those seem to be true. Something interesting I saw once (cartoon or movie) was a world where everyone carried a rifle, and if someone killed or shot someone then everyone around that person shot the person right away. Althought this could potentially cause huge problems I saw it and thought it made some sense, why would you shoot someone when everyone around you can shoot you for doing it?

In an ideal world, that's a great idea.

Things that cause trouble in reality:

Maniacs, who get their rifle and then some day flip out and kill as many as they can.

Accidents, walking around with lethal tools is an invitation for them.

Kids, who don't understand enough and play around with their rifles.

Isolation, where someone gets shot while noone is watching.

Drugs, where someone drinks or takes drugs and gets angry enough not to care.

Illogic, people who don't understand the logic, and try to shoot someone anyway (could also be induced by drugs etc)

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 01:31 PM
The use of violence is a neccessary evil. Why can't you see that? If we banned firearms, a new tactic would come out. Then you would denounce that, and seek to ban it. Then when it was banned, yet another new tactic would come out, and you would denounce it... and so on and so forth. Reality check Adron.

The use of some form of violence may be a necessary evil. If you want to take the argument to that level, I'd say it's better if people get into fist fights than if they use guns. That way most likely noone will be killed before someone else can separate the fighting couple. The more effective our weapons get, the worse the outcome of fights.

And I'd appreciate if you took the time to come up with logical arguments against some of the points I brought up in my latest big post.

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM

Quote from: j0k3r on March 07, 2004, 01:30 PM
Both of those seem to be true. Something interesting I saw once (cartoon or movie) was a world where everyone carried a rifle, and if someone killed or shot someone then everyone around that person shot the person right away. Althought this could potentially cause huge problems I saw it and thought it made some sense, why would you shoot someone when everyone around you can shoot you for doing it?

In an ideal world, that's a great idea.

Things that cause trouble in reality:

Maniacs, who get their rifle and then some day flip out and kill as many as they can.

Accidents, walking around with lethal tools is an invitation for them.

Kids, who don't understand enough and play around with their rifles.

Isolation, where someone gets shot while noone is watching.

Drugs, where someone drinks or takes drugs and gets angry enough not to care.

Illogic, people who don't understand the logic, and try to shoot someone anyway (could also be induced by drugs etc)

But look at the good side, once it happens once, the individual won't do it again (except the isolation I suppose)

[edit]I was also thinking along the lines of civilians overrunning the government[/edit]

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Maniacs, who get their rifle and then some day flip out and kill as many as they can.

A rare instance at the most.

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Accidents, walking around with lethal tools is an invitation for them.

Not with the appropriate training. It just shows how ignorant you are to firearms training.

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Kids, who don't understand enough and play around with their rifles.

Again, appropriate firearms training and schooling, as well as the awareness of the parents.

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Isolation, where someone gets shot while noone is watching.

If only they had appropriate means to defend themselves...

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Drugs, where someone drinks or takes drugs and gets angry enough not to care.

Again, appropriate training and responsibility.

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Illogic, people who don't understand the logic, and try to shoot someone anyway (could also be induced by drugs etc)

Appropirate training and responsibility.

Notice that at no time did I say that appropriate training, schooling, and background checks and workups were not neccessary.

Also would Adron please outline his experience (or total lack thereof) with firearms?

I don't think that training will help if one is under the influence of a mind-altering substance.

In any case, I think that relying on everybody to be appropriately trained and responsible for just about anything has been disproved as a realistic assumption over and over throughout history more times than I can count.

Is this about keeping guns away from Adron?

The purpose is that a responsible firearms owner would not be one to engage in the abuse of illegal substances. Also, background checks refer to convictions and/or records of the abuse of alcohol as well as drugs.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 06:02 PM
The purpose is that a responsible firearms owner would not be one to engage in the abuse of illegal substances. Also, background checks refer to convictions and/or records of the abuse of alcohol as well as drugs.

You have said that owning a gun is a human right. Having a conviction or record of abusing alcohol is not grounds for revoking a human right. You must give guns to everyone.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:34 PM
Also would Adron please outline his experience (or total lack thereof) with firearms?

Virtually complete lack of experience with firearms. I've held, loaded and unloaded an automatic rifle, but never got to fire it. And I've done some air gun shooting. That's it.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Maniacs, who get their rifle and then some day flip out and kill as many as they can.

A rare instance at the most.

It will happen. It has happened already, and will happen again, many times.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Accidents, walking around with lethal tools is an invitation for them.

Not with the appropriate training. It just shows how ignorant you are to firearms training.

This just shows how ignorant you are of accidents. If there was a way to 100% avoid accidents, do you think there would ever be accidents? What happened in Chernobyl, in Harrisburg? Don't you think they had any training? Accidents do happen, and will happen.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Kids, who don't understand enough and play around with their rifles.

Again, appropriate firearms training and schooling, as well as the awareness of the parents.

Same thing here - in an ideal world, perhaps, but in reality, no. Appropriate training and schooling would ensure that no kids got killed in traffic, no kids would drown in ponds, yet they do. Thinking that you can completely avoid incidents with kids and gun by training is unrealistic.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Isolation, where someone gets shot while noone is watching.

If only they had appropriate means to defend themselves...

That may help in a few cases, but mostly not. Having the means to defend themselves doesn't give them a 100% probability of successfully defending themselves. If they are set upon in a surprise attack, having a gun or not having a gun will make little difference. In every situation like this, the attacker has the advantage of knowing that it's going to happen now. You can't be on full alert your entire life.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Drugs, where someone drinks or takes drugs and gets angry enough not to care.

Again, appropriate training and responsibility.

Again, doesn't work, or people wouldn't drive a car when drunk. You can look around the forum for recent examples of people who posted about that.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Adron on March 07, 2004, 01:38 PM
Illogic, people who don't understand the logic, and try to shoot someone anyway (could also be induced by drugs etc)

Appropirate training and responsibility.

People are irresponsible. Being irresponsible lies in the nature of humans.

Quote from: Hazard on March 07, 2004, 03:28 PM
Notice that at no time did I say that appropriate training, schooling, and background checks and workups were not neccessary.

No training, schooling, background checks and workups are perfect.

Quote from: j0k3r on March 07, 2004, 03:19 PM
But look at the good side, once it happens once, the individual won't do it again (except the isolation I suppose)

Good point, but I don't think you want to shoot the kids who borrowed daddys gun to play with it