The Thread Formerly Known As: Kerry Found...

[Adron]

I'm also not sure how gun control is portrayed in Sweden.

Sweden has strict gun control. Most people cannot get a license to carry a gun to protect themselves. There are some exceptions, but I think those are all related to body guards for visiting state officials.

Very few people want a change. Guns are rare. Not that few people actually want to limit guns more. Currently hunters can get a license to have a limited number of rifles, and you can get a shooting license if you're into the olympics-style sport. And the police + military have guns.

So, we live with gun control, we're happy with gun control, and we don't want more liberal rules. Gun control isn't really "portrayed" here, it just "is".

[muert0]

Your a white middle to upper class person, right. So you've probably never had the cops stop you just because you "look" suspicious. That was the crime my freind went to jail for when he had a basic pocketknife that he uses to open canned food and other various things at his camp. And its great that you come up with american revolution. Thats like every black person saying you owe me this because my family was enslaved 400 years ago.And with the t.v. thing thats great that you would do the responsible thing, but most people aren't like that. They would shoot then think about the consequences. But, you have to have the sence to realize if there were less guns there would be less gun related crimes. Oh well these arguements get old everywhere you go its: Why I should or should't be able to own a gun, Whats better  windows or linux, and any other stupid thing people can argue about. Oh well my wife wants some before she goes to work.
       -peace

[Adron]

I've never seen a person kill another in cold blood. So I've never seen a murder, therefore I have never seen a gun used to kill another person, therefore I should think guns are wrong?

My point is that I'm living a happy safe life without guns. If you have never seen a gun, I'm happy for you too. That's the way life should be. No guns.

Differences in the structure of society. You can't compare a small country like Sweden to a larger country or the world.

Yes, there is a difference in our society. We have gun control.

Guns in the hands of civilians are not overkill for the reasons you stated yourself! Civilians need guns because people hell bent on hurting them have them! How many times do you see a crime in which guns were legally obtained? Not very often. You can't stop criminals from having guns!

You can stop criminals from having guns, as has been "proven" (as much as it can be until you see it with your own eyes) already. And apart from that, a criminal having a gun doesn't force every civilian to have one. If it did, see absurdities below.

A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member or a friend than it is to be used against an intruder. (Office of Statistics and Programming, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC. Data Source: NCHS Vital Statistics System for numbers of deaths.  1998 data.)

Guns kept in homes are 22 times more likely to be involved in unintentional shootings, criminal assaults, homicides and suicide attempts than to be involved in injuring or killing in self defense. (Kellermann AL, et al. Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. Journal of Trauma, 1998; 45 (2): 263-267)

All those facts prove only one thing, and it is something I have never condemnd anywhere in this thread nor in my experiences. I have never, ever, said that proper training and schooling is NOT neccessary for the owners of firearms.

Accepting for a minute that there shouldn't be gun control, and that having a gun is a human right, let's see where that brings us...

What do you do about the people who are unable to fire a gun accurately? Should they be left to suffer? A society where everyone is required to carry a gun to protect themselves is not my idea of a good society. More like a rotten society. Not everyone can be Rambo.

Now, assuming that you are indeed Rambo as you have previously stated, why don't you enlist in the police force and protect everyone else? It should be easy for someone of your calibre...

And remember, even if someone completely lacks control, shooting shingles off your roof every friday night when they're drunk, you can't take away their gun. Having guns is a human right. Taking away their gun would mean sentencing them to a gruesome death, and no society could reasonably do that to anyone.

Also, if someone ever holds a grudge against you, all he has to do is invite you over for coffee. Once you knock on his door, you get a shot to your chest, right after which he calls the police and explains how he shot someone attempting to gain entry to his house.

And of course, there are all the previous issues that have been brought up.

Actually, the quote you have above is interesting. If a gun is 22 times more likely to be abused than to be used for self defence, I don't see how even you could argue against gun control. I didn't know it was that bad.

Please look back on the evidence I have offered based on the studies of many criminologists. Criminologists agree that there is no evidence so far that gun control laws will have any positive effect on crime.

If you do not accept as evidence the situation in other countries that do have gun control laws, there can never be evidence until you yourself have gun control laws, and if you don't switch until you have such evidence, you will never reduce violence. Catch 22.

Apart from waiting for "acceptable evidence" that cannot appear, try thinking and reasoning for a while.

This is the basic fact of the matter. Criminals will always have guns.

I dispute that. Please prove that after a period of 1000 years have passed since gun control laws were enforced in the USA, and all guns found in the possession of other than police and military officials have been destroyed, every criminal will still own a gun?

You have a HUMAN RIGHT to protect the life of yourself, your family, and others.

You do not have a human right to own a gun. If you think owning a gun is a human right, please support the human rights movement by supplying the palestinians. USA does support human rights, right?

You can claim all that you want that violent crime would be lowered without weapons, but there is absolutly no proof of that.

That does not need proof; it is obvious. Without weapons, violent crime would be lowered. Please stop trying to make absurd statements.

What it seems you are trying to claim is that gun control laws would never remove enough weapons from circulation that it would be harder for criminals to obtain guns. I can agree that for a period of time, criminals will still have guns. What will happen is that over time, the amount of guns in circulation will be reduced, and then fewer and fewer criminals will have guns. There is no magical over-night effect.

You have to protect yourself in this day and age. You have to protect your family. You cannot depend on a miniscule minority to be able to protect the vast majority. You have to defend yourself, and a trained firearm owner can do so, and he will.

You think that you need a gun. You think that having a gun will allow you to protect yourself. Maybe it's a sign of your weakness, on needing something to rely on. Please comment on this post:

What I try to point out for that situation is:

These are the facts of the case, and they cannot be disputed.

Those lies that you are spewing out can be and are being disputed.

[Adron]

Show me your hard evidence that gun control will lower violent crime. God forbid I'm stuck on freedom and liberty.

The only hard evidence that you will accept is seeing it happen in front of you. You've stated before that you don't accept the fact that it works elsewhere. Good science requires every theory to be disprovable. If the only evidence that you will accept is it happening in front of you, you should go ahead and let it happen.

[Adron]

the reason there are so many gun crimes//accidents is because every moron in america is walking around with a gun

Wrong. You don't have a scrap of evidence to support that.

You amaze me. Now tell me how taking away the guns from everyone wouldn't reduce gun accidents (and gun crimes as well)?

[hismajesty]

Your a white middle to upper class person, right

So, you're saying that just because we beleive in owning a gun, and are Republican that we're white upper class etc? So are you saying that all liberals are black and poor?

[Adron]

So, you're saying that just because we beleive in owning a gun, and are Republican that we're white upper class etc? So are you saying that all liberals are black and poor?

I believe he was suggesting that white upper class get stopped by the police for odd reasons less often than black lower class. I believe that is true, but I don't have the statistics to back it up handy. Maybe someone else does.

Now, what are you? White upper class? Myself, I'd say I'm white middle-upper class living in a somewhat lower class neighbourhood. Of course, there aren't really any black neighbourhoods in Sweden...

[Hazard]

I've never seen a person kill another in cold blood. So I've never seen a murder, therefore I have never seen a gun used to kill another person, therefore I should think guns are wrong?

My point is that I'm living a happy safe life without guns. If you have never seen a gun, I'm happy for you too. That's the way life should be. No guns.

It might be the way life should be, but it isn't the way life is. As long as evil people have guns, free people should too!

Differences in the structure of society. You can't compare a small country like Sweden to a larger country or the world.

Yes, there is a difference in our society. We have gun control.

You also have a society that is nothing like American society its not just the gun control. Saying it is is just ignorant.

Guns in the hands of civilians are not overkill for the reasons you stated yourself! Civilians need guns because people hell bent on hurting them have them! How many times do you see a crime in which guns were legally obtained? Not very often. You can't stop criminals from having guns!

You can stop criminals from having guns, as has been "proven" (as much as it can be until you see it with your own eyes) already. And apart from that, a criminal having a gun doesn't force every civilian to have one. If it did, see absurdities below.

A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member or a friend than it is to be used against an intruder. (Office of Statistics and Programming, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC. Data Source: NCHS Vital Statistics System for numbers of deaths.  1998 data.)

Guns kept in homes are 22 times more likely to be involved in unintentional shootings, criminal assaults, homicides and suicide attempts than to be involved in injuring or killing in self defense. (Kellermann AL, et al. Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. Journal of Trauma, 1998; 45 (2): 263-267)

All those facts prove only one thing, and it is something I have never condemnd anywhere in this thread nor in my experiences. I have never, ever, said that proper training and schooling is NOT neccessary for the owners of firearms.

Accepting for a minute that there shouldn't be gun control, and that having a gun is a human right, let's see where that brings us...

What do you do about the people who are unable to fire a gun accurately? Should they be left to suffer? A society where everyone is required to carry a gun to protect themselves is not my idea of a good society. More like a rotten society. Not everyone can be Rambo.

Now, assuming that you are indeed Rambo as you have previously stated, why don't you enlist in the police force and protect everyone else? It should be easy for someone of your calibre...

And remember, even if someone completely lacks control, shooting shingles off your roof every friday night when they're drunk, you can't take away their gun. Having guns is a human right. Taking away their gun would mean sentencing them to a gruesome death, and no society could reasonably do that to anyone.

Also, if someone ever holds a grudge against you, all he has to do is invite you over for coffee. Once you knock on his door, you get a shot to your chest, right after which he calls the police and explains how he shot someone attempting to gain entry to his house.

And of course, there are all the previous issues that have been brought up.

Actually, the quote you have above is interesting. If a gun is 22 times more likely to be abused than to be used for self defence, I don't see how even you could argue against gun control. I didn't know it was that bad.

Protecting yourself is a human right. You don't seem to think it is. GUNS ARE ABUSED! NO SHIT! Does that mean that guns should be taken away? Cars are abused! Should we take cars away too? Knives are abused! Should we take knives away? Fists are misused. Should we take fists away? That whole shooting shingles off the roof bullshit just shows how ignorant you are to gun owners. Shooting somebody because they knock on your door isn't protected by law Adron. If it is accused they were attempting to force entry there will be evidence.

This is the basic fact of the matter. Criminals will always have guns.

I dispute that. Please prove that after a period of 1000 years have passed since gun control laws were enforced in the USA, and all guns found in the possession of other than police and military officials have been destroyed, every criminal will still own a gun?

You and nobody else can offer me any evidence that everything would work out as you say. I prefer to be armed than take the chance.

You have a HUMAN RIGHT to protect the life of yourself, your family, and others.

You do not have a human right to own a gun. If you think owning a gun is a human right, please support the human rights movement by supplying the palestinians. USA does support human rights, right?

I have the human right to defend my life at all costs. You dispute that?

You can claim all that you want that violent crime would be lowered without weapons, but there is absolutly no proof of that.

That does not need proof; it is obvious. Without weapons, violent crime would be lowered. Please stop trying to make absurd statements.

What it seems you are trying to claim is that gun control laws would never remove enough weapons from circulation that it would be harder for criminals to obtain guns. I can agree that for a period of time, criminals will still have guns. What will happen is that over time, the amount of guns in circulation will be reduced, and then fewer and fewer criminals will have guns. There is no magical over-night effect.

THAT WILL NOT WORK! DON'T YOU FUCKING GET IT? You think criminals will care about the laws? You think they will discontinue the illegal production and purchasing of firearms? You can't stop it. If you think you can, you're wrong. Dead wrong.

You have to protect yourself in this day and age. You have to protect your family. You cannot depend on a miniscule minority to be able to protect the vast majority. You have to defend yourself, and a trained firearm owner can do so, and he will.

You think that you need a gun. You think that having a gun will allow you to protect yourself. Maybe it's a sign of your weakness, on needing something to rely on.

Adron, I know for a fact that if somebody enters my home they have 8 rounds moving their direction at 800 mph. You think the cops will be able to stop anything that goes wrong. Welcome to real life. Come out of the liberal shell you've been hiding in. You have to fight this sort of fire you can't just talk about it and put arbitrary rules in it to stop.

Please comment on this post:

What I try to point out for that situation is:

These are the facts of the case, and they cannot be disputed.

Those lies that you are spewing out can be and are being disputed.

Adron, not even you can dispute the fact that I have the human right to defend my life and the life of my family. Guns are the most successful way of doing that, so get over it. Don't tread on me.

[Adron]

It might be the way life should be, but it isn't the way life is. As long as evil people have guns, free people should too!

It's the way life can be once you control guns. And that's a very mature standpoint you have. "As long as he gets it, I'm gonna have it toooooooo" Even if it's for the worse of everyone.

You also have a society that is nothing like American society its not just the gun control. Saying it is is just ignorant.

Gun control is a large part of the relevant difference. Gun control is representative of an attitude.

Adron, not even you can dispute the fact that I have the human right to defend my life and the life of my family. Guns are the most successful way of doing that, so get over it. Don't tread on me.

I already did dispute your human right of having a gun. You just keep closing your eyes and covering your ears when you get to the arguments you can't face.

I have brought up so many possible arguments, and I don't think you have even showed an attempt to counter half of them.

One simple example is the palestinian one. Do you support giving guns to every palestinian, so that he may defend himself and his family? To everyone in the world? Or is it that only you have the human right of having a gun?

[Adron]

Protecting yourself is a human right. You don't seem to think it is. GUNS ARE ABUSED! NO SHIT! Does that mean that guns should be taken away? Cars are abused! Should we take cars away too? Knives are abused! Should we take knives away? Fists are misused. Should we take fists away? That whole shooting shingles off the roof bullshit just shows how ignorant you are to gun owners. Shooting somebody because they knock on your door isn't protected by law Adron. If it is accused they were attempting to force entry there will be evidence.

Yes, we do take knives away. Thanks for asking. We take away things whose advantages don't outweight the disadvantages. That includes guns.

The whole shooting shingles off the roof thing is something you should consider more. Yes, it is bullshit in reality, but it may follow from your statements. What I'm trying to prove is that your statements are bullshit. According to you, having a gun is a human right. You can't take away something that is a human right.

If you can take away the gun from this guy who has a tendency to drink too much on friday nights, and he can survive, then we can take the gun away from you as well, and you will survive.

You claim that you if somebody enters your home they have 8 rounds moving their direction at 800 mph. I would like to point out that shooting somebody because they knock on your door isn't protected by law Hazard.

You and nobody else can offer me any evidence that everything would work out as you say. I prefer to be armed than take the chance.

It's your right to prefer. Having a gun in your pocket makes sense to any one individual. I wouldn't mind having one in my pocket. And I'm sure every criminal just loves that you want them to have guns. What you need to do is think about the whole picture.

I have the human right to defend my life at all costs. You dispute that?

If you by saying that include taking preventive measures of all kinds (such as, but not limited to, allowing guns), then YES, I most definitely dispute that. Would you like to retract or limit that statement before I move onto showing you all the stupid consequences you can get from saying that everyone has a human right to defend their lives at all costs?

THAT WILL NOT WORK! DON'T YOU FUCKING GET IT? You think criminals will care about the laws? You think they will discontinue the illegal production and purchasing of firearms? You can't stop it. If you think you can, you're wrong. Dead wrong.

Of course it will work. It's not very productive of you to just keep saying I'm wrong. You're talking about illegal production of firearms. Where does that come from? Are there large illegal firearms factories sitting around all over the place? Do you not think that gun use would be reduced if all guns had to come from illegal factories? What about drugs, would they be more widespread if the government sold them on the streets? Do you honestly think that the available supply of some commodity has no effect on how many people get it?

Adron, I know for a fact that if somebody enters my home they have 8 rounds moving their direction at 800 mph. You think the cops will be able to stop anything that goes wrong. Welcome to real life. Come out of the liberal shell you've been hiding in. You have to fight this sort of fire you can't just talk about it and put arbitrary rules in it to stop.

I don't claim that the cops will be able to stop everything that goes wrong.

I claim that the cops will be able to stop a reasonable part of what goes wrong. I claim that less things will go wrong. I claim that even you, rambo, can't stop everything that goes wrong.

I claim that in an encounter where a criminal has a gun pointed at you, him knowing that you have a gun that you're waiting to shoot him with makes him more likely to shoot you first.

I claim that you cannot at the same time always keep guns out of reach of children and always have them handy in case they will be needed.

I claim that if you ban guns and destroy any guns encountered, the number of guns in circulation will start decreasing and keep decreasing until it reaches a new balance. I claim that given this new lower balance, less criminals will have guns.


Your claim that somebody entering your home will have 8 rounds moving their direction at 800 mph is incorrect because: You can not pull the trigger fast enough to get 8 rounds in the air in that space at the same time. You are not always at home. You are not always awake. You do not always hold your gun.

[Hazard]

Show me your hard evidence that gun control will lower violent crime. God forbid I'm stuck on freedom and liberty.

The only hard evidence that you will accept is seeing it happen in front of you. You've stated before that you don't accept the fact that it works elsewhere. Good science requires every theory to be disprovable. If the only evidence that you will accept is it happening in front of you, you should go ahead and let it happen.

Good science also assumes you can prove your theory.

-What dream world do you live in? You can't stop criminals from having weapons. You can't. If you think you can you are wrong.

-You have proven my point about the police for me Adron. They can't be everywhere all the time. This is why people should have the means to defend themselves from armed attackers. How would you feel if your family was brutally murdered because you couldn't defend them? Would you just suck it up? I don't think so.

-Removing ones ability to protect themselves and their families is morally wrong. I don't care if its a knife or a gun. You don't have the guts to look a man in the eye who saved his family from being brutally murdered and tell him he was wrong, and you know it.

-You're saying that I can defend myself unless it involves killing the man who wants to kill me? I have the right to live, and I will defend that right at all costs. ALL people have that right.

-I have no right to fire on anybody for knocking on my door. If they force their way into my home and I give them due warning then by law I have the right to take them down before they can take me down.

-I agree that convicted criminals and the clinically insane should not have firearms. However, they attain the illegally. The lawful should not be defenseless, which is, if you had your way, how you would render them.

-I know where I live getting any number of drugs could be done in less than a half hour. Its not like its exceedingly difficult to acquire illegal substances.

-Fine, destroy the guns. You don't think more will be produced illegally?

_____

You know Adron, fertilizer can be used to make a bomb. Lets ban it so it can't be used by bad guys. You know Adron, pocket knives could be used to attack a little old lady, lets ban their sale. You know Adron, a broomstick could be used to assault a neighbor over the placement of a garbage can, lets ban the sale of brooms. You know Adron, a car could be used to run over your cheating wife and her lover, so lets ban cars. Gasoline too, that could be used to burn down the high-school bullies house.
_____

I am personally done with this entire thread. The liberal propaganda that blinds you from facts seems to be too strong for even the most empirical evidence to break. Adron, I certainly hope that your life is never threatened by an armed attacker, but if it is, I hope your good friends the cops are right next to you to take care of it. Otherwise, you're toast. Me, I'll take my personal safety into my own hands. Millions of lives are saved by civillians having firearms. If one less woman is brutally raped and murdered thanks to me and my gun, then it is all worth it. As for you Adron, Molon Lave.

For any of you others who are still open minded, check out this website, make your choice, and think about the message it is trying to send.

_____

Any research, facts, or information can be found at the NRA website, A Human Right! (The website), the US Department of Justice, the FBI website, and the Tampa Police Department factbook/website.

[Grok]

THAT WILL NOT WORK! DON'T YOU FUCKING GET IT? You think criminals will care about the laws? You think they will discontinue the illegal production and purchasing of firearms? You can't stop it. If you think you can, you're wrong. Dead wrong.

Of course it will work. It's not very productive of you to just keep saying I'm wrong. You're talking about illegal production of firearms. Where does that come from? Are there large illegal firearms factories sitting around all over the place? Do you not think that gun use would be reduced if all guns had to come from illegal factories? What about drugs, would they be more widespread if the government sold them on the streets? Do you honestly think that the available supply of some commodity has no effect on how many people get it?

Adron that is an excellent idea.  Take away all the guns, give everyone nearly-free drugs.

[Grok]

Good science also assumes you can prove your theory.

This is just wrong.

[Hazard]

Good science also assumes you can prove your theory.

This is just wrong.

Okay, I theorize that I am God. Prove me wrong.

[Grok]

Good science also assumes you can prove your theory.

This is just wrong.

Okay, I theorize that I am God. Prove me wrong.

I am God.  Therefore you must be wrong.  Now, prove yourself right.