Valhalla Legends Archive

Quote from: Tuberload on February 17, 2004, 12:52 AM
To me the word fits Microsoft perfectly. To use any of their products, you are almost always required to run another product made by them, Windows. I think Bill Gates is a brilliant man, who knows how to make money. I personally have no problem with Microsoft, but they try and dominate every aspect of the computer industry and that bugs me.

The only way I see Java as being Sun exclusive is because they have taken Microsoft to court over J++. Once again Microsoft tried to dominate a growing technology. Sun also allows access to their technology on numerous operating systems, so I fail to see how they are excluding anyone.

VB is just as Microsoft exclusive as Java is Sun exclusive.

Microsoft licenses VB to hundreds of companies to implement in their products.  Microsoft retains control of the technology, and has written this product for a specific market slice, even if it is a big slice including their desktops.

Sun retains control of the Java technology, and has written this product for a segment of the market.

If Sun is oh-so-different, why not release the future development and direction of Java to the world?  Why did they throw a fit when someone tried to extend Java for a vertical market where the extensions would have been useful?  It's all about control and money.  Just because Microsoft has the most control and most money, doesn't mean everyone else is always right and Microsoft wrong.

-1 to Grok since Sun took a major part and still has a significant role in the development of Java, and thus started the JCP which maintains each aspect of Java by parties from varies companies which also play a big role in the Java world. If you go to www.JCP.org and click on any of the JSRs you will notice under that many companies take part as Expert Groups per each specification.

-1 to Tuberload and MesiaH for +1'ing people with no contribution to the conversation or comments to backup reasons to toast.

-1 to St0rm.iD for not commenting on Grok and Tuberload's mistakes before I could.

Edit: Tuberload, they took Microsoft to court for alot more then J++, matter of fact they took them to court for every single product they had which was Java enabled. On the other side though, Microsoft had no right to call their heavily modified and disgusting version of Java, Java.
Grok, Although Sun still holds the patents and copywrites, and fights all the legal battles for Java, as stated above, they have done as much as they possibly can to build Java into the open and proof of that lies when you look at the Expert Groups for some of the Java Specification Requests... you'll notice there are quite a few that Sun isn't even a part of.
Edit Again: I didn't actually roast you guys so don't spam me with them, hehe.

Are you saying Sun does not have final discretion on what goes in Java?  These other companies can add whatever they want when they want?  Can Microsoft add whatever they want to Java; extend it as they see fit?

The JSR is the biggest piece of crap ever. It barely gets anything done, it's slow, and only big companies can participate in it.

I seem to have missed this big conversation since I don't care about BnetD. hmm.

Anyway, the difference, in my mind, between Microsoft and Sun is that Sun offers a lot of products from free.  J2SE is free, and Microsoft VS costs a lot of money.  I think that businesses would prefer free technology.

Quote from: iago on February 18, 2004, 12:43 PM
I seem to have missed this big conversation since I don't care about BnetD. hmm.

Anyway, the difference, in my mind, between Microsoft and Sun is that Sun offers a lot of products from free.  J2SE is free, and Microsoft VS costs a lot of money.  I think that businesses would prefer free technology.

Great.  Then you would love IIS, MSDE, etc.  The volume of products Microsoft offers for free is staggering.  Thank you for being honest.  Not going to suddenly change your tune now, or further qualify what you meant?

Quote from: Grok on February 18, 2004, 04:24 PM

Quote from: iago on February 18, 2004, 12:43 PM
I seem to have missed this big conversation since I don't care about BnetD. hmm.

Anyway, the difference, in my mind, between Microsoft and Sun is that Sun offers a lot of products from free.  J2SE is free, and Microsoft VS costs a lot of money.  I think that businesses would prefer free technology.

Great.  Then you would love IIS, MSDE, etc.  The volume of products Microsoft offers for free is staggering.  Thank you for being honest.  Not going to suddenly change your tune now, or further qualify what you meant?

Oops, I slipped up, MS sucks.  

Actually, I agree.  But the original MS operating system costs money, whereas the base Linux operating system is free (usually).  

In any case, the reason I use Linux/Java/gcc over Windows/vs (particularely at work) is because windows costs money, and I'm perfectly happy working with a free operating system/language which may be inferior in some ways.

I don't like IIS and MSDE, because they cost too much money when you want to really use them.

Licensing IIS requires a Windows Server CAL (~$40) for every authenticated user to the server, while Apache offers the same thing for free using .htpasswd on linux. Interestingly enough, Microsofts licensing agreements imply that even if you use Apache instead of IIS as a web server on a Windows server, you still need to get a Windows Server CAL for every authenticated user of Apache.

MSDE is artifically speed limited when there are more than 5 simultaneous jobs. That alone should be enough to dislike it. It's crippleware! You need to purchase SQL to get the non-crippled version.

Another point: openoffice, which was made (or at least licensed, I don't really know) by Sun is free.  Unlike MS Office which not only requires you to buy Windows, but you also have to buy MSOffice.

I really appreciate Grok's, Adron's, and iago's comments.  They seem to be the only ones really thinking this through to the end.

However, about the free issue....

The fact that you prefer free software to paid software doesn't make Microsoft evil -- nor does the fact that they own the market share.  The fact of the matter is, smart capitalists invested in technology and used intelligent marketing and business strategies to make themselves the leaders in the industry.  That doesn't make them evil; it makes them intelligent.  Even if the software sucks at some point, you have to admire the fact that they get to suck your pockets for a $40 CAL.

To the few people who have commented about portability, I have one word: WINE.  I guess it doesn't work on Mac, but who cares -- it's what, 2% of the market share?  I don't gear my clan's website towards Pocket Internet Explorer.  It's not smart business.

My two cents.  

WINE barely ever works. mono, on the other hand, rocks.

Microsoft has its good and bad sides. Yeah, maybe IIS sucks (sorry grok, but it does, in my opinion), but Windows is an excellent workstation OS for what I do (web design/programming/for fun programming in C++, Python, and Java). Not to mention that Microsoft basically is going to pay for my college via stocks.

Quote from: Myndfyre on February 18, 2004, 08:55 PM
The fact of the matter is, smart capitalists invested in technology and used intelligent marketing and business strategies to make themselves the leaders in the industry.  

The fact of the matter is that smart capitalists invested in technology and used intelligent marketing and ugly, anti-competitive business practises that should've had the government take them out of business, had they not been bribed.

Quote from: Hostile on February 18, 2004, 01:08 AM
-1 to Tuberload and MesiaH for +1'ing people with no contribution to the conversation or comments to backup reasons to toast.

Sorry I was trying to be humorous. I will refrain from doing that in serious debates from now on.

Quote from: Hostile on February 18, 2004, 01:08 AM
Edit: Tuberload, they took Microsoft to court for alot more then J++, matter of fact they took them to court for every single product they had which was Java enabled. On the other side though, Microsoft had no right to call their heavily modified and disgusting version of Java, Java.
Grok, Although Sun still holds the patents and copywrites, and fights all the legal battles for Java, as stated above, they have done as much as they possibly can to build Java into the open and proof of that lies when you look at the Expert Groups for some of the Java Specification Requests... you'll notice there are quite a few that Sun isn't even a part of.
Edit Again: I didn't actually roast you guys so don't spam me with them, hehe.

I am aware that Sun has taken Microsoft to court on multiple occasions. I generalized my reply, and decided not to go to deep into details. I do not take arguments over programming languages to seriously, sorry.

I just think it is fun to argue with people who don't like Java as much as me. I like talking on these forums a lot, so sometimes I do not take things very seriously. I also like Kp, so at the time I felt the need to +1 him, and then let him know for no apparent reason.

Quote
To the few people who have commented about portability, I have one word: WINE.

I have never been able to get wine to work on a constant basis and have just accepted I need to restart my computer and get back on my xp partion when I fill the need to play a computer game...

You're forgiven, but now you're taking me seriously too. Double-edge to that one, I was more or less pointing it out since its really pointless to post over just that.

Oh yeah, and -1 for liking Kp.