Valhalla Legends Archive

I agree with Grok.  ASP.NET is the way to go.

Actually, XML does have looping (for-each) and comparisons (if).  It's not a total replacement for server-side scripting, but I think it has the possibility of getting there in the near future.

You guys keep leaving out the part about talking to the database.

that's what ADO.NET is for -- good thing I already know it, huh Grok!  

Bah...Linux is a pile of crap. Shitty license, shitty spelling, shitty package managers.

FreeBSD is the way to go. It's the most production ready operating systems ever. Apache is also production ready, I agree.

How is PHP obscure? A lot of people use it...but truth be told, I've never used it on a high-trafficked site, but everyone says mod_perl really rocks for that kind of stuff.

Postgres and SAP-DB are comparable to SQL server's scalability. Postgres runs the .org master db iirc.

Did I forget to mention it's all FREE!?

OT: XML sucks It's too bloated/overhyped/overused.

Well, I have used it on a high-traffic site, and it performs admirably.

Grok bashes PHP because of it's lack of commercial uptake (I assume) which is understandable, and I wouldn't recommend PHP to someone who wanted to learn one language and then get a job using it - that said, PHP is an excellent language with a great development team, PHP scripts are almost entirely cross-compatible over Unix/NT, PHP is fast and stable, and has had few security problems that have been the fault of the development team. Those that have been found have been quickly addressed. Although it's not used commercially as much as other languages, say ASP, that's not because it's technically inferior. There are a multitude of reasons - but technical issues or problems with the language are not among them.

People who say PHP is universally crap don't know what they're talking about.

General opinion is JSP sucks...just to clarify.

lol, General opinion on JSP sucking? I keep finding it odd how all these kids say how much Java sucks and how are you opinions supposed to be taken seriously?... Because you have 1-2 years of experience to back you up? lmao. Where I do most certain agree ASP is a much bigger market for good reason, JSP is integrated into thousands of servers for the very reason most people don't want to pay a fortune for Microsoft completely upgraded all aspects of their software every three years and then abandoning their old software(ok im getting off track here) but anyways they put base their entire IT departments off of Java for the affordability. Now if PHP was so much greater then JSP don't you think just someone in the IT industry would point it out? oh wait that must be because its not! Java has been dominating a large portion in all aspects of internet since it was first released. You're missing a few key aspects here, Now lets say Java sucks, ok? Why does Microsoft try making their own version of it? I assure you it wasn't completely to try and beat Sun at its own game. I know this is more so based off JSP/Servlets rather then just Java but either way. As Grok pointed out compare JSP to PHP, Java at least provides the interoperability between everything, by far outdoing PHP in this area and still maintains ease of use and probably the most expandable on the same note. JSP provides a median between expense, compatibility and ease of use. Alot of your tech hungry kids say everything related to Java is slower, It cant be faster it will always fall behind despite the fact you seem to have to wait those dire 20 milliseconds longer for it be loaded. You seriously need to rethink some of those brilliant ideas you have because if you keep thinking JSP and ASP are crap just because they aren't open source you're going to find yourself being lucky to make 20 grand a year with sites that are more limited and well, open source doesn't make money. People who pay to make PHP sites pay less, why? Because they can! The best PHP code out there you can download in 20 minutes, and since they figure well everything about it is free, so why pay alot of someone to work it especially when any 12 yr old can put a site togather in minimal time. JSP and ASP are far from difficult to begin also but have much more potential and expandability after advancing with them. As just to note the documentation for developing JSP and using the application server are completely specified covering everything you can possibily do with them, atleast with the Sun ONE Application Server. Anyway, I'll just finish off by saying, if you just plan on making sites for the hell of it and don't really care about actually learning something that you can in fact use in life, then go for PHP, If you want to a free and expandable way to enhance websites go with JSP/Servlets and Java+XML, if you have some extra money around or might be like college or so then you can probly head to your colleges library, pick up Visual Studio.NET/2003 Pro for $100 and buy a book or something and really turn it into something that you'll be able to use for years to come, go with ASP.

Dude I'm the Java guy on the forums. Back off.

Java rocks.

JSP sucks.

Servlets are kind of ok.

I'd just like to point out your not the only Java guy.  I have been learning/using the language for about a year now and personally feel it has its place in the world and will continue to be a dominating language for internet programming for years to come.

By Java guy, I mean the one who participates in the language wars. Sorry I didn't clarify. A few other people use Java on the forums as well.

Quote from: Arta[vL] on May 10, 2003, 12:54 PMand has had few security problems that have been the fault of the development team.

The good folks at PHP.net have warned of a serious vulnerability in PHP 4.3.0 - http://apache.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/17/2050229

Quote from: Arta[vL] on May 10, 2003, 12:54 PMAlthough it's not used commercially as much as other languages, say ASP, that's not because it's technically inferior. There are a multitude of reasons - but technical issues or problems with the language are not among them.

If technical inferiority isn't the only reason, what are the others?

The guy's question was he wanted to learn something better than HTML, and what was easy to learn.  Nothing is easier to learn than VBScript in Active Server Pages.  Nothing so easy to learn out there has such a large support community.  Nothing so easy to learn has as many web pages, free source code, usenet newsgroups, as VBScript in Active Server Pages.

Because VBScript is similar to VB and VBA, which is used as a scripting host in hundreds of commercial applications, the knowledge is useful and powerful in the workplace.

Most people who need a RAD for Windows, but don't like Visual Basic fall into three categories:
1)  People who say they need RAD, but really don't.
2)  People who are stuck in IBM shops, where the IBM chant is "Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere, Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere.." and if you suggest anything by Microsoft, they look at you like you're crazy.  Thus indicating a religious adherance to a particular vendor's offering.  (Note that a few years ago, the chant was "OS2, Powerbuilder, Java, OS2, Powerbuilder, Java.." but despite the sermonizing, OS2 went bye-bye)

If you really do need a RAD for Windows, and need it to be supportable, based on widely accepted standards such as COM, and always want to be able to find affordable programmers to support the program, no company has done a better job meeting those needs than Microsoft with variants of Visual Basic.

From a Windows RAD viewpoint, it is the best overall answer.  Not the best in every way.

A quick question, isn't C# a RAD language as well?  Now my definition of a RAD language is one that allows you to drag and drop UI elements and inserts the necessary code for you.  If I am wrong would someone please enlighten me?

Quote from: Grok on May 12, 2003, 06:54 AM

Quote from: Arta[vL] on May 10, 2003, 12:54 PMand has had few security problems that have been the fault of the development team.

The good folks at PHP.net have warned of a serious vulnerability in PHP 4.3.0 - http://apache.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/17/2050229

Quote from: Arta[vL] on May 10, 2003, 12:54 PMAlthough it's not used commercially as much as other languages, say ASP, that's not because it's technically inferior. There are a multitude of reasons - but technical issues or problems with the language are not among them.

If technical inferiority isn't the only reason, what are the others?

The guy's question was he wanted to learn something better than HTML, and what was easy to learn.  Nothing is easier to learn than VBScript in Active Server Pages.  Nothing so easy to learn out there has such a large support community.  Nothing so easy to learn has as many web pages, free source code, usenet newsgroups, as VBScript in Active Server Pages.

Because VBScript is similar to VB and VBA, which is used as a scripting host in hundreds of commercial applications, the knowledge is useful and powerful in the workplace.

Most people who need a RAD for Windows, but don't like Visual Basic fall into three categories:
1)  People who say they need RAD, but really don't.
2)  People who are stuck in IBM shops, where the IBM chant is "Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere, Java, Powerbuilder, Websphere.." and if you suggest anything by Microsoft, they look at you like you're crazy.  Thus indicating a religious adherance to a particular vendor's offering.  (Note that a few years ago, the chant was "OS2, Powerbuilder, Java, OS2, Powerbuilder, Java.." but despite the sermonizing, OS2 went bye-bye)

If you really do need a RAD for Windows, and need it to be supportable, based on widely accepted standards such as COM, and always want to be able to find affordable programmers to support the program, no company has done a better job meeting those needs than Microsoft with variants of Visual Basic.

From a Windows RAD viewpoint, it is the best overall answer.  Not the best in every way.

I'll take this time to point out that you only listed two types of people who "need a RAD for Windows", even though you said they fall into three categories. What are we expected to do, tune in next time when you reveal the third type? I don't like this game.

My guess would be:
3) People who want a language that is easy to feel cool with.  Meaning they steal someone else’s code, and can easily modify it and call it there own without really having any concept of programming.