Valhalla Legends Archive

This is a funny question, since all my life I've assumed that we are totally physical beings, and there is no such thing as our immaterial souls.

However, a couple days ago, me and my friend were talking about the possible invention of Transporter technology.  It is possible for the quantum state of a single atom to be transfered to another atom a small distance away, so it might be possible, sometime in the future, to move the quantum state of every atom in a human body to another place in space.

Let's go with the assumption that this is possible.  It would involve making a copy of a person and then killing the original.  He argued that, well this would save time and travel and such, it wouldnt' be "you" any longer.  You would have been killed, and somebody else, who just happened to have your memories,  your thoughts, and your tendencies would have been created.

To take it a little farther, what if the original body wasn't destroyed, what if an EXACT copy of every atom in the human body was copied.  Obviously, I wouldn't be controlling two bodies, I would only be in the original.  The second one would also be concious, but would be somebody else.  Only I'm me.

Based on this, I don't see how it's possible that I am totally material.  Clearly, there is something else that makes me me and that makes an exact copy of me somebody else.  

What is your opinion on this idea?  Feel free to totally trash what I just said if you can think of some logical argument against it, based on the assumption that it IS possible to make a copy of a human.

Good luck!

I don't fully understand your argument.  The best I can understand is you're saying every human created must have a unique soul because you can't control yourself and a copy of you?  That wouldn't make *any* sense considering they are seperate brains.  What makes YOU is just a bunch of chemical reactions!
Edit: Oh yea, <insert joke about not having a soul for long, har har, etc>

I've never thought of it in that, it's definitely interesting. For one thing, this clone would think and behave exactly like you for a short period of time (I'd guess act exactly like you for the first 5 minutes, and in general like you for the first 2 months max) due to the different experiences you would be having.

Think of yourself as the original and you having the clone (you step out of the original cloning chamber), you think it is cool, you maybe want to test how alike you are, but you are more confident (presumably) because you are the original and he is just a clone. After a couple minutes this sinks in and how you behave is different... You think that you might be rich for this, that you might have your work cut in half (he can do the rest), he can do stuff for you...

Now step out as the clone, having the thoughts from the original just seconds ago you know that you are the clone, and that it was successful and you are just like your original copy. This is all fine and dandy for awhile, like your original you too are obviously curious as to how alike you are. You eventually begin to realize that you are a clone, and depending on the cercumstances(SP?)(is it a test, or something done regularly) you begin to wonder what the future has in store for you. Are you killed (or maybe even 'destroyed'?) so that no one will know, will you ever get to love, or experience life? Or will they keep you, experiment on you and see what went on. If it's something done regularly in the future, are you expected to live life doing stuff for your original, or can you go live your own life? Do you have a soul [note: without a soul, you are not affected by judgement from God, you can do as you wish without consequences (this is assuming you believe in God)]?

Since it is not something that science has proved yet, I don't think they know enough (if at all) about souls, and how you would clone that or create a new one. What all do souls do? Is that where feelings come from, or do chemicals excreated(sp?) by your brain just make you feel the same way in identical situations?

My 2cents for now, I'll probably keep posting replies though this is interesting.

iago, sorry to have to break this to you on a forum.  You are my robot son.  I built you and programmed you (which explains those crashes you sometimes have).  All your memories up until two days ago were created by my team and planted in your core storage.

lol Grok

I think jok3r missed my point, maybe I can clarify it a bit.

I am me.  I am concious.  I am in control of my body.  It's hard to explain, but it all boils down to I am me.  

If an exact copy was made, it wouldn't be me.  It would be somebody else.  But if it's an exact copy, how could it be somebody else?  I've been in control of this body my entire life, and it doesn't seem like I could ever be somebody else, even if that somebody else was the exact same as me.

It seems like the only way to explain why I'm me, and an exact copy is somebody else, would be an immaterial part that isn't copied.


Finally, I'm talking about about more than a clone, too, a clone is just the same DNA, but I'm talking about an exact atomic quantum copy.

Both of them would be you. And then the you's would develop separately. I don't see any problem with it.

Who would I be in control of, then?  If a copy was made, whose eyes would I be seeing out of?  Clearly I wouldnt' be controlling both of them at the same time!

This sort of thing is sorta addressed in the movie "Seven Days". People are essentially killed, and then exact clones of them are made that go as far as retaining the memories of their "pre-cloned" self up to the point of death. They're not "them" any longer; they're a clone. Yet they behave, and essentially are the same person. It's a fairly fascinating discussion.

iago, if there were two of you, you'd essentially control yourself. If you were to be killed, and then cloned, "you'd" still be dead, but there would be someone EXACTLY the same as you roaming around, behaving as you would, and retaining your exact memories up to the point of its matriculation, but you YOURSELF wouldn't be in control of it. It'd sort of be in control of itself based on you. This is, ofcourse, all from a scientific standpoint. From a religious one, it certainly gets alot more complicated, and I don't know if I could understand it at all.

Quote from: iago on September 09, 2003, 11:46 AM
Who would I be in control of, then?  If a copy was made, whose eyes would I be seeing out of?  Clearly I wouldnt' be controlling both of them at the same time!

I don't understand the question. It obviously depends on which one you consider I? Since I is selfrelative, both of them would be I to themselves, just like I'm I to me...

"I" exists only at a particular instant, and then "I" is only your memories (real or fake) and conditioning. If you were emulated in hardware, and the emulator could be stopped and restarted, how would that feel? Which session would be "I"?

You're just your brain which acts to interpret everything you /see/think/feel/etc.  If a copy is made of you, it's a seperate brain.  You can't control your friend's brain can you?  I really don't see the problem here.  The INSTANT a copy is made, it's not identical to you, because there would be some thought or some subconscious thing that would already be slightly different.  So the idea of two exact replicas of you walking around is not really possible in my opinion.

I am Grok.

Quote from: Soul Taker on September 09, 2003, 03:16 PMThe INSTANT a copy is made, it's not identical to you, because there would be some thought or some subconscious thing that would already be slightly different.

This is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to get at.  Even if you make a copy of EVERY ATOM in your body, it's still not YOU!  Therefore, there surely must be more to a human being than just a collection of atoms!

No, there's just infinite amounts of possible thoughts/actions/etc possible.

If you are you and it is you who would know who's you and who's it aside from it thinking it thinking it is you while you know it is it and you are you?