Do we have Souls?

[______]

What would happen if "someone"  shut off the transporter... would you split into two, or would you just evaporate into the air or just make a bloody  mess on the floor on both sides of the transporter?

[j0k3r]

Kind of irrelavent? If you were being transported on the subatomic level, it wouldn't be all at once...

Anyways, I know what iago means. You are your conscience, and your consciousness. This MIGHT all be transferred over, but you wouldn't exist anymore if the original clone (you) were to be destroyed, so I don't really see a point in cloning yourself if your gunna be killed in the proccess.

It's hard to explain, but I understand what iago means.

[note]We do not fully understand how the human brain works, hence we don't fully know if the copy would get all the memories and understand everything as you did, it might just come out as a child. We do know however that dogs associate smells with chemicals in their brains and in their noses in order to remember what the smell is, if this were to be the same as humans than it should be possible[/note]

[Arta]

The INSTANT a copy is made, it's not identical to you, because there would be some thought or some subconscious thing that would already be slightly different.

This is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to get at.  Even if you make a copy of EVERY ATOM in your body, it's still not YOU!  Therefore, there surely must be more to a human being than just a collection of atoms!

By that argument, you aren't you. If every millisecond that passes alters you in some way, then there's no appreciable length of time during which you can take some kind of empirical measurement and say 'This Is Me'. Who YOU are is changing, constantly. Therefore there is no you. hah!

I think the argument has to be based either scientifically or spiritually. You could say, yes, there's a soul, it's totally separate, and this process would remove it. Or you could say that your soul is contained somehow within the quantam state of the atoms that make up your body. Or you could say that the soul is a bunch of nonsense and that everything you are is contained within your physical makeup. On a side note, wouldn't such a device constitute murder?

[Hazard]

This is one of those paradoxical questions that those who study ethics may end up dealing with at some time. It's an interesting topic indeed and there are conter-arguments to every possible argument you can dish out. What it comes down to is just what iago said, a person or persons must decide whether or not human beings have souls. It is linked to philosophy and religion in many ways and is an extremely delicate topic. iago has pretty muched posed a paradox in which there will be two definite sides. I enjoy the question and would I personally believe people have souls. This would pose an interesting ethical problem to those who were to attempt such an endeavour as transport in that fasion. Obviously, your direct genetic copy wouldn't be you in actuality. The person may have the same ideas, beliefs, hopes, dreams, etc. but I agree with iago that it would no longer be you. Thanks iago, great topic for intelligent discussion.

[Soul Taker]

Kind of irrelavent? If you were being transported on the subatomic level, it wouldn't be all at once...

Anyways, I know what iago means. You are your conscience, and your consciousness. This MIGHT all be transferred over, but you wouldn't exist anymore if the original clone (you) were to be destroyed, so I don't really see a point in cloning yourself if your gunna be killed in the proccess.

It's hard to explain, but I understand what iago means.

[note]We do not fully understand how the human brain works, hence we don't fully know if the copy would get all the memories and understand everything as you did, it might just come out as a child. We do know however that dogs associate smells with chemicals in their brains and in their noses in order to remember what the smell is, if this were to be the same as humans than it should be possible[/note]

Actually I believe the current theory is that our memories are actually stored in our RNA and people are just trying to prove it further.

[j0k3r]

Ah, well that makes sense I guess, there is definitely alot more that could be stored...

Maybe I can clear up for Arta what iago was trying to say... It's true that your always changing and you always will be, but there is a level of conciousness that is YOU, you are in control and you decide what's going on (as far as you are concerned at any rate), if you were to be killed and a clone made of you, you as you right now, always have, and will be thinking will not be your clone (or copy, note: I use clone instead of copy). It will be someone else controlling that body, not you, and someone else making the decisions.

It's kind of like if you were acting in a movie, and in the movie your character has a freak accident and another actor is used for the character. Up until that point where you were cut out, you control the characters expressions and actions (within bounds, you have to follow the script), and when the other peron fills in for you, it's no longer you that is controlling everything, but it is still 'you' (the character that is). I think I lost my point in this paragraph, but it's worth a shot.

Therefore there is no you. hah!

I see why you chose stewie as your avatar

[iago]

Yes, Jok3r, I'm glad somebody is seeing my point.  Most of the posts here, while they still deal with interesting questions, are missing my point.

The actor analogy is a very good analogy, I must say, I wish I had thought of it :-D

[Grok]

Yes, Jok3r, I'm glad somebody is seeing my point.  Most of the posts here, while they still deal with interesting questions, are missing my point.

The actor analogy is a very good analogy, I must say, I wish I had thought of it :-D

As a Canadian national, you are not entitled by your government to have a point.

[Adron]

This is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to get at.  Even if you make a copy of EVERY ATOM in your body, it's still not YOU!  Therefore, there surely must be more to a human being than just a collection of atoms!

If it had exactly the same properties in every physical way, it would be you. Unfortunately, two atoms don't like to share the same physical space, and so, since you're sitting in *this* chair, you know that the guy sitting in *that* chair is your clone.

[Adron]

Yes, Jok3r, I'm glad somebody is seeing my point.  Most of the posts here, while they still deal with interesting questions, are missing my point.

The actor analogy is a very good analogy, I must say, I wish I had thought of it :-D

I'm not sure what your point is. I think the "always changing" point is good. If you're talking about who's controlling your body as "you", then what happens when you sleep, or walk in your sleep? You don't exist when you're not conscious? What about a machine that produces two copies and destroys the original? (i.e. a modified transporter)

[j0k3r]

Yes, Jok3r, I'm glad somebody is seeing my point.  Most of the posts here, while they still deal with interesting questions, are missing my point.

The actor analogy is a very good analogy, I must say, I wish I had thought of it :-D

I'm not sure what your point is. I think the "always changing" point is good. If you're talking about who's controlling your body as "you", then what happens when you sleep, or walk in your sleep? You don't exist when you're not conscious? What about a machine that produces two copies and destroys the original? (i.e. a modified transporter)

When you walk in your sleep or you sleep, you still wake up, and are able to return to full control of your body (unless you die somehow...), but the actions you perform while you sleep are based on your dreams (when you wake up in a cold sweat it's because of a dream, and sometimes when people sleepwalk they are walking in their dreams (as my friend toled me)).

I fail to see what the concept of creating 2 clones and destroying the original is, or even making 1 clone and destroying the original (unless you alter the DNA to perfect them, but why would someone do that if they won't be there to appreciate it?). The movie 'Swordfish' has something like that, the lead terrorist has clones of himself that active when he dies, and star wars galaxies has the same concept. The clone is created and preserved until the person dies, this does not include destroying the original just for the clone.

[Soul Taker]

Uh... You might want to watch Swordfish again.  And not be on acid.

[Adron]

When you walk in your sleep or you sleep, you still wake up, and are able to return to full control of your body (unless you die somehow...), but the actions you perform while you sleep are based on your dreams (when you wake up in a cold sweat it's because of a dream, and sometimes when people sleepwalk they are walking in their dreams (as my friend toled me)).

But when you are dreaming, you may be dreaming that you are someone else, and as far as you know at that time, you *are* that other person. What I'm trying to say is that it's not clear at all who "I" is, other than the simple definition of always being who/whatever you like to think of as "self" at the current instance of time, and it might be different at another time.

I fail to see what the concept of creating 2 clones and destroying the original is, or even making 1 clone and destroying the original (unless you alter the DNA to perfect them, but why would someone do that if they won't be there to appreciate it?). The movie 'Swordfish' has something like that, the lead terrorist has clones of himself that active when he dies, and star wars galaxies has the same concept. The clone is created and preserved until the person dies, this does not include destroying the original just for the clone.

The concept of making 1 copy and destroying the original is known as "teleportation". By enhancing that into producing two copies, you will have two you's that wake up in the teleport receivers, both thinking and feeling that they are you. And both will be as similar to you as you yourself are when you wake up in the morning and resume control of your body.

[j0k3r]

Uh... You might want to watch Swordfish again.  And not be on acid.

I saw it two years ago in theatres before my graduation... All I remember was the guy was blown up in a helicopter and there was a frozen version of him in a freezer or something.

But when you are dreaming, you may be dreaming that you are someone else, and as far as you know at that time, you *are* that other person. What I'm trying to say is that it's not clear at all who "I" is, other than the simple definition of always being who/whatever you like to think of as "self" at the current instance of time, and it might be different at another time.

Well that might be different, however I (nor anybody else I know) have never dreamed that I was someone else, which is what makes scary dreams scary.

The concept of making 1 copy and destroying the original is known as "teleportation". By enhancing that into producing two copies, you will have two you's that wake up in the teleport receivers, both thinking and feeling that they are you. And both will be as similar to you as you yourself are when you wake up in the morning and resume control of your body.

Your right about the teleportation... But that is what brings us back to our original thread topic, would that person have a soul, would it have your soul, and would it actually be you? Obviously from my standpoint it would not be you, I don't think it would have a soul unless science finds out how to create souls... Another idea: What would they do with the body? Would they kill it fast and drop it into fire and burn it up? Donate the organs to hospitals? Launch it into outer space? I fail to see why they would kill the original once again.

[iago]

What to do with the original body is a good question.  It would seem to make the most sense to break down the atoms and use that energy in the transporter reaction.