Take your time.

Adron · October 31, 2004, 08:51 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 08:35 PM
Well I was not there, but I have not heard stories about Genocide or slaudering of the innocent from anyone I know. Just how much it sucked over there in the hot muggy environment hoping your gun does not jam when you are fighting with the north. That was apparently a huge problem... the m16s did not like the tropical environment.

But if you can't tell the innocent from the enemies, you'll end up killing innocents even if you don't want to. Or you'll be killed by an enemy you held fire on. People could be trying their best to do the right thing and still not succeed.

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 08:56 PM

but that does not make them murderers.

Zakath · October 31, 2004, 08:56 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 08:22 PM
The elite media in the united states sucks ass.

At least there's one thing we can agree on.

Adron · October 31, 2004, 09:01 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 08:56 PM
but that does not make them murderers.

That's going to come down to definitions if we try arguing about it... Are you a murderer if you do things that you know are going to get innocents killed?

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 09:03 PM

Quote from: Adron on October 31, 2004, 09:01 PM
Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 08:56 PM
but that does not make them murderers.

That's going to come down to definitions if we try arguing about it... Are you a murderer if you do things that you know are going to get innocents killed?

Well the troops were fighting for their lives. Kerry just portrayed them as heartless killers when he came home. Jain Fonda and John Kerry were feeding the north's propoganda.

Adron · October 31, 2004, 09:24 PM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 09:03 PM
Well the troops were fighting for their lives. Kerry just portrayed them as heartless killers when he came home. Jain Fonda and John Kerry were feeding the north's propoganda.

Kerry didn't want the troops to be there. What if the choice is between having troops there, getting innocents killed (+ getting your troops killed) and having troops at home not getting innocents killed?

Yes, the troops were fighting for their lives, but what were they forced to do for their lives? Some of them supposedly got psychical problems from it. For how long can people handle such an environment without becoming heartless killers? It can't be easy...

quasi-modo · October 31, 2004, 10:00 PM

Maybe so, but Kerry was deamonizing the troops... as much or more so then the administration that put them there.

dxoigmn · November 01, 2004, 01:18 AM

Quote from: quasi-modo on October 31, 2004, 10:00 PM
Maybe so, but Kerry was deamonizing the troops... as much or more so then the administration that put them there.

Whether or not he was deamonizing the troops is arguable and completely opinion. Many of the troops testified that they committed war crimes as proved through the Winter Soldier investigation. Kerry used these accounts to prove to the Senate Foreign Relations Committe that policies often forced soldiers to commit war crimes. He simply reiterated the testimony of the Winter Soldier investigation before the committee. Whether or not you believe that was demonizing is purely your own opinion. Unless, you can quote specific instances in his speech then I think you're whole argument is hogwash. Or maybe you're talking about another speech?

Edit: Also found this http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@DocID=244.html <-- a site even Dick Cheney can approve (he tried).

quasi-modo · November 01, 2004, 08:55 PM

Its not purely my own opinion. Its the opinion of many of the men and women who were there.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/campaign2004/a/kerryvietnam.htm

This crap was used as anti us propoganda by the north and it was played in pow camps for the pows to hear. Many have testified to that. I have seen several troop interviews on various news programs about this.

Adron · November 02, 2004, 09:55 AM

Quote from: quasi-modo on November 01, 2004, 08:55 PM
Its not purely my own opinion. Its the opinion of many of the men and women who were there.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/campaign2004/a/kerryvietnam.htm

This crap was used as anti us propoganda by the north and it was played in pow camps for the pows to hear. Many have testified to that. I have seen several troop interviews on various news programs about this.

This "crap" ? It doesn't sound like crap to me. It sounds like a great speech by someone who has been in war and seen what it's like. Someone who has seen what they're really fighting for, someone who doubts the willingness of the people they are fighting for because of personal dealings with them, someone who knows that good Americans were sent out to a war far away, to die, or return physically crippled, or with emotional injuries.

Please point to what you don't like in it?

quasi-modo · November 02, 2004, 07:40 PM

I don't like the whole fact that he gave his speach when he did and the way he did. I do not like how it was used as propoganda by the north vietnamese, even played in pow camps no less, and how it demoralized our troops even more.

Arta · November 02, 2004, 07:43 PM

Which, clearly, is worse than going to a pointless war in the first place...

You can't expect there not to be dissent when governments do stupid things.

quasi-modo · November 02, 2004, 08:06 PM

The war was not pointless, it was just a failior.... Kerry did not help at all, he just added fule to the fire.

Arta · November 02, 2004, 08:23 PM

Sorry, you're saying the war in Vietnam was not pointless?

quasi-modo · November 02, 2004, 09:08 PM

It had a point. The idea was to contain communism in that area. It was not successful, but it had a point.