God

[Grok]

I believe in God because I think it would be neat to be violently flogged by rabid monkeys.

[Maddox]

It's a system of control for society. It's a means of keeping everyone in their place, otherwise they think they will go to hell. People believe the world was created in 7 days and the 2nd person was made from a rib. Call me crazy, but I think evolution is more realistic.

[MyndFyre]

People believe the world was created in 7 days and the 2nd person was made from a rib. Call me crazy, but I think evolution is more realistic.

Crazy!

hehe j/k.

If a being created the perceivable universe, isn't it possible, perhaps even likely, that the being that created the universe is not perceivable, because that being exists independently and outside of the universe?

The universe is a very large concept to grasp, and the idea that there is a being that is larger than the universe is an even tougher one, especially for our egotistical minds to grasp.  Current humanist thought is that humans are the supreme intelligence in the world, and perhaps the universe.  How humbling would it be to find out that, in fact, we're not -- and that we're actually quite dumb in comparison?

No -- I don't limit the possibilities by the abilities of my perception.

[Adron]

I don't believe in the existence of god. There is no need for god, other than as an explanation for things we don't yet understand. We must look to the past to realize this, because we don't know how much we don't know. There will always be things we don't know.

The people inclined to believing in god will explain unknown things using god. The next generation will understand more, and laugh at what the previous generation thought. And still they'll do the same thing. "How could they have been so stupid? Of course that's not God's doing, that's just ..... . God is with us though, just look at  ......"

I think god is a useful tool to many people, letting them think there is a higher purpose to things. Knowing that god made them sick or made their car crash to punish them for their sins probably feels much better than that it was all a random coincidence.

Our brains have evolved to look for patterns - it helps us understand our surroundings. Individuals that enjoy seeing patterns have been more successful, and so we have come to like seeing patterns everywhere. Even where there is no pattern. When there is no pattern, no explanation we can understand, "God" is a catch-all. Blame it on god or praise god, depending on the situation.

The concept of god is a very dangerous one. It's a way of making people kill their neighbours, a way of making people do whatever you want. You don't have to explain why they're supposed to do this, because "God" wants them to. No mere mortal could understand god's divine purposes. Obey, and you will be rewarded. Most probably while your corpse is rotting.

[Grok]

The concept of god is a very dangerous one. It's a way of making people kill their neighbours, a way of making people do whatever you want. You don't have to explain why they're supposed to do this, because "God" wants them to. No mere mortal could understand god's divine purposes. Obey, and you will be rewarded. Most probably while your corpse is rotting.

God is going to get you for saying that.  If He doesn't wait till you die, His disciples will do His will.

[jigsaw]

Adron...Grok... God knew you would say that SINNER!

[TehUser]

I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?  Conversely, what would people who don't believe in God consider proof that God does exist?  I can't think of any concrete evidence that could be presented in either direction that would be the end-all of this argument.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  - Arthur C. Clarke

[Arta]

I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?

You can't prove a negative.

[Adron]

I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?  Conversely, what would people who don't believe in God consider proof that God does exist?  I can't think of any concrete evidence that could be presented in either direction that would be the end-all of this argument.

I don't believe in god, but if god came to us, and worked with us in proving his existence, I'm sure it could be done to my satisfaction. He could swap the direction earth rotates, create a new moon in the shape of the words "GOD EXISTS", or some similar, highly noticeable wonder.

[TehUser]

I don't believe in god, but if god came to us, and worked with us in proving his existence, I'm sure it could be done to my satisfaction. He could swap the direction earth rotates, create a new moon in the shape of the words "GOD EXISTS", or some similar, highly noticeable wonder.

But is that being really God then?  Or just something with the ability to change the direction planets rotate and create new moons, or whatever?  Or for that matter, if that being only has the ability to manipulate the human mind to perceive those highly noticable wonders.  Is it still really God?

[MyndFyre]

I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?

You can't prove a negative.

So I'm consistently told.  However, in my empiricism-touting statistics class, you can reject a negative as significantly unlikely.

H₀ -- there is no significant difference between (sample A) and (population A or sample B).

When a statistical test indicates that it is unlikely that, just by chance, factors in the differences between sample A and (sample B or population A) are extremely unlikely, we reject H₀ which leads us to the alternative hypothesis: there IS a significant difference.

Of course, you can't PROVE it.

I think god is a useful tool to many people, letting them think there is a higher purpose to things. Knowing that god made them sick or made their car crash to punish them for their sins probably feels much better than that it was all a random coincidence.

Perhaps.  But -- does that mean that a god does not exist?

The concept of god is a very dangerous one. It's a way of making people kill their neighbours, a way of making people do whatever you want. You don't have to explain why they're supposed to do this, because "God" wants them to. No mere mortal could understand god's divine purposes. Obey, and you will be rewarded. Most probably while your corpse is rotting.

Anything abused can be dangerous.  When your corpse is vaporized because someone dropped a hydrogen bomb on it, science has become dangerous.

Just because "God" is a catch-all for wackos who want to be justified in their crazed, maniacal killing of people doesn't mean that all people who believe in God are dangerous, or even that the concept of "God" is a dangerous one.  The concept of nuclear fission isn't inherently dangerous, but it can be used for horrible things.

I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?

I honestly don't believe it's possible to do it one way or the other.  People have and will wonder for ages what the origins of our lives are.  Until we can observe it, we'll never know.

And have you seen Contact with Jodie Foster?  Even after she saw the aliens, nobody believed her.

[Adron]

I think god is a useful tool to many people, letting them think there is a higher purpose to things. Knowing that god made them sick or made their car crash to punish them for their sins probably feels much better than that it was all a random coincidence.

Perhaps.  But -- does that mean that a god does not exist?

No. It only talks about the concept of believing in a god, and whether the god exists or not has no relevance at all. It's the belief that matters. It's like fairies - think of the tooth fairy, except for adults. A way of turning the pain of losing a tooth into something positive.

Anything abused can be dangerous.  When your corpse is vaporized because someone dropped a hydrogen bomb on it, science has become dangerous.

Just because "God" is a catch-all for wackos who want to be justified in their crazed, maniacal killing of people doesn't mean that all people who believe in God are dangerous, or even that the concept of "God" is a dangerous one.  The concept of nuclear fission isn't inherently dangerous, but it can be used for horrible things.

True. That is why we regulate nukes so carefully. Religion, on the other hand, is abundant and unregulated.

[Adron]

But is that being really God then?  Or just something with the ability to change the direction planets rotate and create new moons, or whatever?  Or for that matter, if that being only has the ability to manipulate the human mind to perceive those highly noticable wonders.  Is it still really God?

Well, it probably depends on your definition of "God". I think the ability to create a world would match many such definitions.


Of course, it's all about actually doing it. But when we start thinking about whether we're being manipulated into seeing the world turn square and bouncing around or if it's actually happening, we might as well question whether we ever lived.

[Forged]

you cant physically make something (universe) out of nothing. Therefore there must be a higher power.

How was the god made?

[MyndFyre]

you cant physically make something (universe) out of nothing. Therefore there must be a higher power.

How was the god made?

Such a simple question really belittles the philosophy behind the statement, that a being created the universe.

If you think about it, a god must have existed beyond the universe.  Here's why:

If a god existed as part of the universe, one that created our planet for instance -- it's an obvious question: what created that god?  And what created the creator of that god?  And so on, and so forth, into a logical paradox.

Therefore, God must be eternal: such a being existed before the universe - and therefore time - existed, and will exist after the universe and time end.

Existing eternally implies omniscience.  A being that exists apart from time -- unregulated by the flow of time that constrains our universe -- would have the ability to be at any given place at any given time, because that being could start at any given path in any given vector at any given time.  It also implies omnipresence, based on the very same logic.

I have some slightly more convoluted logic used to get into omnipotence (the final characteristic of a logical deity), but I don't really feel like getting into it here.

But to really answer -- well, not answer, but challenge -- your question, if we can't even comprehend a being that exists outside of our universe, who are we to say that we can comprehend the maker of that being?

I think the biggest thing that prevents people from believing in a god is ego -- they want to think that they are in control of their lives, and that they are the ultimate power and intelligence.  Then we try to use that expectation to justify their disbelief -- "I can't see God.  Who made God?"  It is egoism, straight from Rand.