Best Programming Language for Jobs

[netytan]

netytan,

Semantically, your scheme example is no different than creating a C++ class with some internal variable and an "add" method to modify this variable along with some property to retrieve the value.

You should try modifying your example so it doesn't use set!

I'll do that dx if you can tell me how you can store the new value of a symbol without storing that value, sounds a little screwed no lol. Like telling someone to cross the road without crossing the road .

Not so, where the effect is similar in this case closures work in very different way to classes and this is a very important to how we can use them.

In OO languages a class is (in the most general terms) a template used for creating an instance of that class in memory. When you ask for a new instance of a class the interpreter/compiler allocates memory and and binds it too a pointer so you can interact with it.

This is fundamentally different from a closure which binds the *lexical environment* in which it was created. This happens from to top down and allows for far more control and richness here. For instance you can create a closure at any point, not least within a function definition. With very little functional sugar you could turn this into a simple protected relational object db (even though in fact it uses closures not objects) based on these ideas.

This is considerably harder using OO because it forces you to use the concept/abstraction in the way it defines. This is one very good reason that closures are more useful, you can define a system for OO programming using closures but you can't define a closures using OO (without managing the environment itself and then you're part way to defining a sub-language or env, in either way it gets complicated).


Aside from the conceptual point you raised the OO equivalent of the code I asked for where it may be equivalent will be longer and more convoluted; you have to do it the way it wants which effectively spoils the elegance of such a simple concept.

Why should a simple task be extended into being more than it is? Do I want to define a type every time I want to take advantage of this concept, even where it isn't needed? I've programmed in this way enough to answer no.

My $0.0000000000002

Mark.

[netytan]

neytan, while he may be a troll, just illustrated a great point: everyone here missed the point that he was using a closure.

I voted Python.

However, eventually we are going to end up with a mix between Scheme and Smalltalk.

I'd like the technical definition of a troll sometime . If it's replying to a lot of posts then I most definitely am but the way I understood it had to do with irrelevance and each post I've made has some relevance to the reply though obviously I intend to say what I think as everyone here does .

I'd prefer that my opinions and my willingness to express them didn't get me classified as a troll but if they must they must.

It would be a Python programmer who made the distinction, didn't expect that so much but I'm glad .

Thanks Banana,

Later all,

Mark.

[MyndFyre]

I'd like the technical definition of a troll sometime

I have to head to work soon, and I'll provide replies to other things mentioned once there, but I'll oblige this now.

A troll is someone who fits one or more of the following:
1.) posts incessant or irrelevant information,
2.) posts several times in a row when a "modify" link is available,
3.) posts with complete disregard to the opinions of others,
4.) posts opinions without grounding them with examples or clearly unbiased, professional research,
5.) advocates a point of view or opinion as fact, or
6.) posts without any kind of sensible consideration for common respect for others.

From what I can tell you fit items 2-5 of that list (inclusive).


netytan sent me a private message with a dispute about this list.  I want to share his comments and my reply with the forum community, in hopes we might be able to clear up some forum etiquette.


I will address each of your points.

1) If you look at the replies then you'll see that it is related/relevant, but they also include my opinions and whos dont? The whole broad is this and it's to be expected.

I did not accuse of you of this.  I said that that a troll fits one or more of those, and said that number 1 did not apply to you.

2) I dont see this so let me explain. I was replying to different posts and working though the thread, modifying my post each time with quotes from other peoples posts would have been pretty annoying.

Is it my bad that others didn't reply in the several hours I was to fill in the gaps? I'm sure you yourself have posted more than once to a thread before.

I believe you misunderstood me.  Replying to a thread is perfectly acceptable and encouraged, as is replying to replies.  However, this is the annoying part to other members of the forum -- example from pages 5 and 6 of the thread called "Best Programming Language for Jobs":
Warrior
netytan
netytan
netytan
netytan
netytan
Skywing
netytan
Skywing
Warrior
netytan
MyndFyre
netytan
dxoigmn
$t0rm (you know him as Banana fanna...)
netytan
netytan
MyndFyre

In the space of 18 replies yours took up 10; this is more than one reply for every reply made to you.  The repeated-reply issue is one that we bring up frequently: if you are the most recent person to post in a thread, simply modify the last post rather than make a new reply.  Or, if you are about to post a reply, open a copy of the thread you want to quote from in a new window or tab, select "Reply with Quote," copy the quote or part you want to copy, and then paste that into the reply textbox of the original.

Since you asked if I've posted multiple times in a thread, yes, I have.  However, to see an example of the technique I just mentioned, take a look at this reply.

There are certain times, of course, when posting a second time in a row are warranted; these include situations in which a thread should be bumped out of necessity (although this is also frowned upon).

3) This one again, everyone here was expressing different opinions however admittedly I don't agree with some of these (as you don't with mine) and I wont pretend I do but...

This one is more influenced by the following, although I'm sure I had a good reason for stating it when I did.  Your tone is as if nobody else has anything worthwhile to say or contribute.  That is not acceptable.

4) ... I have backed this up with several examples, even if you don't agree with what I said they exist.

The only example you have given me is your counter example.  You gave an example of a "color" abstraction, but you did not provide me with concrete details of how the abstract "color" concept is realized.  Furthermore, you never demonstrated how this would be represented in a computer, where a Color OOP object is very clear and concise.

5.) This ones crazy. There are Very few facts in reality however with a little time taken to research these subjects you'll see they are widely considered to be "fact" by researches and CS's on the front line.

This is a patent example of what I just accused you of.  "With a little time taken to research these subjects, you'll see they are widely considered to be 'fact' by reserchers and C[omputer] S[cientists] on the front line."

YOU are making the argument, so YOU need to present the research.  It is not apparent to me that Lisp and Scheme are front-line top-notch languages, because I don't see all numbers of programs popping up in them.  But I'm not making the argument that they are. 

6) This one I can see because where I didn't mean to offend I wasn't considerate in expressing what I think.

Again, I did not make this claim about you, so I am not going to address it.

7) Tack this one on, I am guilty of letting one thread spill over into another when it shouldn't have but this is in a large part because of replies made there.

They were related.  It's OK, that happens quite a bit.  $t0rm shouldn't have made a third thread about it, though, although he likes to make language flamewar threads just to see how long they last.

I really don't really like being labeled a troll and as is likely common for trolls, I don't feel this label is justified. Which 5 things, taking this into account do you really think apply?

You probably don't mean to be a troll, but you're exhibiting troll-like behaviors.  So perhaps take into account the behaviors I've listed and ask yourself whether you do them.

[netytan]

...
I will address each of your points.

1) If you look at the replies then you'll see that it is related/relevant, but they also include my opinions and whos dont? The whole broad is this and it's to be expected.

I did not accuse of you of this.  I said that that a troll fits one or more of those, and said that number 1 did not apply to you.

Ah, I read that wrong I read it as between 2 and 5 of these things apply to me but not as actually specifying which ones. My apology there Mynd.

2) I dont see this so let me explain. I was replying to different posts and working though the thread, modifying my post each time with quotes from other peoples posts would have been pretty annoying.

Is it my bad that others didn't reply in the several hours I was to fill in the gaps? I'm sure you yourself have posted more than once to a thread before.

I believe you misunderstood me.  Replying to a thread is perfectly acceptable and encouraged, as is replying to replies.  However, this is the annoying part to other members of the forum -- example from pages 5 and 6 of the thread called "Best Programming Language for Jobs":
Warrior
netytan
netytan
netytan
netytan
netytan
Skywing
netytan
Skywing
Warrior
netytan
MyndFyre
netytan
dxoigmn
$t0rm (you know him as Banana fanna...)
netytan
netytan
MyndFyre

I can see your point here however aside from being a little annoying I don't see it as being a major problem, I will however modify them in the future. To be honest I wasn't really thinking about it I was just replying to what came up in turn  .

3) This one again, everyone here was expressing different opinions however admittedly I don't agree with some of these (as you don't with mine) and I wont pretend I do but...

This one is more influenced by the following, although I'm sure I had a good reason for stating it when I did.  Your tone is as if nobody else has anything worthwhile to say or contribute.  That is not acceptable.

I took it to be more of a debate than a discussion, possibly a bad idea but I still wouldn't of conceded if I didn't agree.

4) ... I have backed this up with several examples, even if you don't agree with what I said they exist.

The only example you have given me is your counter example.  You gave an example of a "color" abstraction, but you did not provide me with concrete details of how the abstract "color" concept is realized.  Furthermore, you never demonstrated how this would be represented in a computer, where a Color OOP object is very clear and concise.

The color example was a metaphor Mynd, as Banana recognized. I wasn't using it literally so there was no need to provide an actual representation for it. I also provided an example of quick-sort implemented in haskell which is obviously clearer than equivalent versions in other languages. I personally have seen examples of quick-sort done in most languages and this is without a doubt the most concise.

And then obviously the counter example and the Macro for expressing Pythons for loop in Scheme?

5.) This ones crazy. There are Very few facts in reality however with a little time taken to research these subjects you'll see they are widely considered to be "fact" by researches and CS's on the front line.

This is a patent example of what I just accused you of.  "With a little time taken to research these subjects, you'll see they are widely considered to be 'fact' by reserchers and C[omputer] S[cientists] on the front line."

YOU are making the argument, so YOU need to present the research.  It is not apparent to me that Lisp and Scheme are front-line top-notch languages, because I don't see all numbers of programs popping up in them.  But I'm not making the argument that they are.

You just win here, but the fact that you haven't looked into them doesn't make them any less "facts" than they would be otherwise. Surely some responsibilty must also go the person trying to disprove the argument? I'll present more evidence in the future besides by own posts on the subject .

Thanks at least for giving me the opportunity to explain Mynd, though I didn't expect this to end up in the forum. I PM'd it too you because I didn't think it had any relevance to the thread. It's not my wish to act as a troll in ANY but I do get carried away in things like this. Things I feel strongly about.

Take care,

Mark.

[MyndFyre]

Thanks at least for giving me the opportunity to explain Mynd, though I didn't expect this to end up in the forum. I PM'd it too you because I didn't think it had any relevance to the thread. It's not my wish to act as a troll in ANY but I do get carried away in things like this. Things I feel strongly about.

As I said, I didn't think that this would be particularly harmful to bring to the forum (I try to be as considerate as possible when doing such a thing), but I also thought that it would benefit the forum community as a whole.  Don't take what I say as an attempt to quash your opinions or make you shut up.  That is not the intent.

[UserLoser]

Is it possible netytan is someone we've seen in the past trying to come back with a "boom?"

[Warrior]

I hope you're not thinking what I'm thinking

[Yegg]

Is it possible netytan is someone we've seen in the past trying to come back with a "boom?"

He's no one you would know of.

[UserLoser]

Is it possible netytan is someone we've seen in the past trying to come back with a "boom?"

He's no one you would know of.

How do you know this?

[netytan]

Is it possible netytan is someone we've seen in the past trying to come back with a "boom?"

Well User, I can unequivocally say no to that because I've never posted on this forum before yesterday. You're welcome to check but you'd be wasting time.

Mark.

[Zakath]

I can say that while his posting style may ruffle some feathers, I like the fresh perspective.

Personally, as far as "programming languages for jobs," the best thing you can do is be well-rounded. Being able to pick up a project written in C, Java, Lisp, a webscripting language, etc... at a moment's notice is an invaluable skill, and much more valuable IMO than being an absolute know-it-all with one language and being completely clueless with everything else.

[Joe[x86]]

I can say that while his posting style may ruffle some feathers, I like the fresh perspective.

Personally, as far as "programming languages for jobs," the best thing you can do is be well-rounded. Being able to pick up a project written in C, Java, Lisp, a webscripting language, etc... at a moment's notice is an invaluable skill, and much more valuable IMO than being an absolute know-it-all with one language and being completely clueless with everything else.

Hah, Zakath.. talking about programming?! Afk for ever.

Kidding.

[netytan]

I can say that while his posting style may ruffle some feathers, I like the fresh perspective.

thanks Zakath

[Grok]

The parts of this topic that talk about "what is a troll?" would make an interesting topic of its own.  Maybe the moderator will see fit to split it off.  I have my own ideas of what a troll is and would enjoy sharing.  However, it would be offtopic to discuss in response to the "best programming language for jobs" thread.

[effect]

im a troll