No Time Zones

[MyndFyre]

While we are on the subject of unity, why don't we make one big government for the whole world instead of having silly little ones.  Also we shouldn't have countries.  We should just be humans.

Don't get me started on the psychological near-impossibilities of that.

I really do think that it would require a nearly Star-Trek-First-Contact-esque experience before that could happen.

[Adron]

Everything would be off when you travelled.  So, if you crossed the normal time zone line, and the businesses started keeping different hours (for example, instead of 8 am local time, businesses opened here at 3 pm universal time), then I crossed into California, where businesses opened at 4 pm universal time, I would need to adjust what time I was used to businesses opening.  That would create a much bigger hassle IMHO than having 24 time zones.  Of course, the hassle would only be to travellers.

Businesses already open and close at different hours in different parts of the world. I wouldn't say that having to find out whether they open at 3 or 4 is such a big problem. I already check to find out whether they open 7 am, 8 am, 9 am or 10 am here. Clothes stores tend to open up more towards 10 am, and shipping companies tend to open their offices more towards 7 am.

[Arta]

I agree a single timezone would be simpler in the end. Confusing to start with, but then better when people got used to it - especially since things are becoming all-the-more global.

[shout]

I really think it is things like this that hold the world back, were all too afraid of being a little confused for about a week (or month, or year). Why doesn't the U.S. use metric? Because we might be confused for a little while! Humans are afraid of change when content, and none more so than the majority of the U.S.

[Rule]

Well, GMT is kind of what we use already as a "global time zone" when we seek the advantages such a thing would offer.   Also, having a global time zone that people use casually leads to different ambiguities.  For example, let's say I were to write a short story or report a news event containing the information "my friend stumbled through the door and knocked over my vase at 23:00".  Immediately we, the readers, know that I'm saying my friend came in late at night and "stumbled" in -- we make all sorts of inferences from this (e.g. was he drunk?). 

If I said, "my friend stumbled in at xx:xx international time," that would contain far less meaningful information. Even if I went out of my way to specify which country I live in, should people be really familiar with the "international clock" in every country, or every region of every country for that matter?

I think using GMT for stock markets etc would be appropriate, but for every day life it would be a nuisance, even if people got used to using it in their daily schedules.  Something that was intended to make things more clear would in most cases make things more ambiguous.

[Adron]

I would not say that is a problem. Language would adapt to handle it. You could write "My friend stumbled in late at night" and things would be fine again. For International news, that is not really too much work. For local news, just giving a time would be fine. And just think about how much easier it would be to give a time for an event when you do not also have to specify the time zone for it, and people no longer have to translate to their local time frame.

[Yegg]

What we're speaking of could never happen. If it did, we would probably be turning to one world government or dictatorship over the world too. I can't imagine what method we would use to get everyone in the world to follow a single timexone. If the US for example, was the country that wanted this to be done, why would everyone simply listen to us?

[Rule]

I would not say that is a problem. Language would adapt to handle it. You could write "My friend stumbled in late at night" and things would be fine again. For International news, that is not really too much work. For local news, just giving a time would be fine.

Yes, I considered this, but "late at night" does not give nearly as much information as a time of day.  The way we have it, I can tell you about all sorts of events, spewing out various times as I please, and you will know precisely what times of day I am talking about, and be able to ascertain far more information; currently you have all sorts of knowledge about how humans operate at various times of the day.   

And just think about how much easier it would be to give a time for an event when you do not also have to specify the time zone for it, and people no longer have to translate to their local time frame.

Can't we just use GMT for this now? 


I don't think there is anything too profound about having an "international time" to try and synchronize events "e.g. this event happened at this one and only time," because time is not an absolute quantity anyways.   It is not at all correct or proper to see time in this way.

I won't derive all of special relativity at the moment, but I'll give an example that most people will understand.

Let's have a laser clock
--------     Mirror
    |
    |       
    |
    |
Source

Distance to the mirror is "L", time it takes to bounce from mirror and back to source is   t = 2L/c ,   where c = the speed of light.

Let me move with a velocity Vx to the right of the "stationary" mirror.

This is what the picture will look like to me

         ------   ------  ------   
                   /   \
                  /      \
                 /         \
                /            \ 
               /               \
            Source         Source

Not a great drawing, but you get the idea.  Everything appears to me to be shifting to the left.  Now let's call my time T'.  After the laser has gone half way in its journey, I will have gone a distance vT'/2.  The laser will have gone a distance   cT'/2.     Since I am travelling in the horizontal direction, the vertical distance from me to the mirror is still L.

Using pythagoras' theorem,   (L)^2 + (vT'/2)^2 = (cT'/2)^2.
                     (c^2-v^2)/4 * T'^2 = L^2
                     T'^2  = 4L^2 /[(c^2-v^2)]
                     
                       T' = 2L/c*1/(Sqrt[1-v^2/c^2]) = 2L/c*gamma(v).

You can see that gamma(v) is always >= 1.
          In this case since v^2 is some positive value that isn't c,
          gamma(v) > 1.

Recall that the time for the person in the REST frame to see the event was
  2L/c.    So the time for the same "event" to happen in my frame is
   T' = gamma(v)*t  , which is "longer" than it appears for the person in the rest frame.


If we were to ever have this "international time zone" for everyone to go by, it would be for convenience, but it would almost be less proper because it would suggest we don't know how time works.  In my opinion, it would be less convenient -- lots of information would be lost unless we went to great pains to express it in other ways. 


I think I'll make a post about special relativity soon in the SQP forum.  It is a fascinating topic that people think they understand but often don't.  The "tank" example given in the past is a clear example of this:  both events would NOT happen (the tank would not fall in and go past).  The tank would fall into the hole if it were travelling fast enough, although the question was fairly vague (gravity would act on it in different ways, might have enough momentum to zoom through.. etc.  better to think of a trap door with a black hole under it).  How the event seemed in both reference frames would be very different.


Note added -->  We could try and have a "rest reference time," but would be calculating the spacial positions and accounting for relative velocity differences for various events to make it work.

[iago]

Here's the biggest problem with universal time......

Are you ready?

It would TOTALLY RUIN the word MIDNIGHT!  How could I survive saying "0:00" instead of "midnight"? It would be horrible!!!

But seriously, whoever said it is right: we should worry about getting the slow countries on metric before worrying about time.  I don't know how anybody can live with non-metric anymore. 

[CrAz3D]

I like it.  I wouldn't mind waking up at 2pm & going to sleep at 4am & it seem normal.

But each day wouldn't start at 12am midnight, some would start at like 9am or something, wouldn't it?

[iago]

I like it.  I wouldn't mind waking up at 2pm & going to sleep at 4am & it seem normal.

But each day wouldn't start at 12am midnight, some would start at like 9am or something, wouldn't it?

Like it was already said, you would get used to it.  I'm sure at one time having hours defined at all was odd. 

[MyndFyre]

But seriously, whoever said it is right: we should worry about getting the slow countries on metric before worrying about time.  I don't know how anybody can live with non-metric anymore. 

It's nice having iago tell me I'm right now and then. 

[Warrior]

Change is bad, get back to your cubicle.

[jigsaw]

Who the hell cares, if we are going to make one clock, lets call it Miller Time and we can all enjoy the high life. *hands grok a beer* "It's five o'clock somewhere"

[dxoigmn]

Who the hell cares, if we are going to make one clock, lets call it Miller Time and we can all enjoy the high life. *hands grok a beer* "It's five o'clock somewhere"

If there is only one clock then it won't always be "five o'clock somewhere"...