New Pope

[iago]

I believe the only animals that have sex for pleasure are dolphins and humans.  Although I'm not really sure who figured that out or how.  It's probably another of those urban legends like "duck quacks don't echo".

Regarding women and the Church: if they don't want to be part of the Church, THEY DON'T HAVE TO. The Church is not a government. If the Catholic Church doesn't want women to be part of the clergy, who cares? No one (at least in any civilized country) is forcing people to be in the Catholic Church (the Church itself only 'strongly suggests' it ) If you disagree with it, then deal with it, and don't be part of the Catholic Church. You can go off and form your own denomination of Christianity, just like the myriad of other people who, throughout history, have disagreed with the Catholic Church. History has shown that this works fine, and you can go off and do that.

The Church has, in the past, been a governing body, and it's possible they'll be a governing body again at some point in the future.  I'm not entirely sure on the definition of "government", but I think you might even be able to apply it to what the Church does right now.  They govern the Catholic religion and the Catholic people, don't they?

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

They govern the Catholic religion and the Catholic people, don't they?

Yes. They govern a people who voluntarily agree to be governed by them...as opposited to a geographical, regional government, at which one is often at the whims of where they were born.

[nslay]

So you conclude that two people using each other for pleasure is fine?  Oh by all means it happens every day...but that doesn't make it right.
It is meant soley for fun?  Oh, I am sure its fun, but just because its fun you can't conclude it is only for fun.  In fact, everyone understands the action's original purpose is for procreation.
What's wrong with pleasure? Nothing, but this isn't exactly playing a simple game of catch.  There is something wrong with pleasure when it is at the expense of another.  Some people enjoy murder, but that is at the expense of another's life and this clearly is wrong.  In that case, it is wrong for one person to use another for sex and vice versa. 

This is all such nonsense that I can't be bothered to respond to it. None of that has anything to do with this conversation.

If two people want to have sex for fun mutually, well as I said above, its purpose isn't soley for fun obviously.

Howso? People have sex for fun all the time. What do you think a one night stand is? Having no-strings sex is something plenty of people do mutually, and just for fun. It doesn't have to be love just because one person isn't using the other.

Hehe, just because people have sex for fun doesn't mean thats its purpose.  By our anatomy the real purpose is procreation, however it is true that it is enjoyable.  Some people wear pants too big for them (for style), does that mean that the purpose of large size pants is to be worn by people to whom it doesn't fit correctly?

[Archangel]

Sex after marriage, pffft
Dude, sex is fun,
the church aproves this conduct just when you are married and have a little nice family, i mean if u have 3 kids, why you cant have some extra fun?

[nslay]

Sex after marriage, pffft
Dude, sex is fun,
the church aproves this conduct just when you are married and have a little nice family, i mean if u have 3 kids, why you cant have some extra fun?

You're right, they do approve the conduct.  However, presently, the church condemns contraception so having fun can be a little risky.  There is a little loop hole though, you can have sex when the woman cannot concieve.  There are programs like Natural Family Planning that show you how to do this naturally.  I don't know how accurate their methods are though.
And funny, I seem to have led myself into a loop hole myself.  I previously stated that the original purpose of sex is procreation.  Perhaps this isn't completely true since our anatomy also makes it fun.  I suppose there is no harm so long as you don't objectify.  Allow me to ponder some reasons independant of the church as to why premarital sex is wrong.

[Hazard]

Sex after marriage, pffft
Dude, sex is fun,
the church aproves this conduct just when you are married and have a little nice family, i mean if u have 3 kids, why you cant have some extra fun?

Thats a typical response.

[quasi-modo]

It is meant soley for fun?  Oh, I am sure its fun, but just because its fun you can't conclude it is only for fun.  In fact, everyone understands the action's original purpose is for procreation.

Actually, one of the things that separate man from beast is that man has sex for fun. If you only have sex for procreation, you're the beast.

What about the other animals that also have sex for fun? Dolphins and I think dogs and apes do too.

Actually you can add humans to that list.

... he was acting like humans were the only animals that do the way I read it.

[iago]

So you conclude that two people using each other for pleasure is fine?  Oh by all means it happens every day...but that doesn't make it right.
It is meant soley for fun?  Oh, I am sure its fun, but just because its fun you can't conclude it is only for fun.  In fact, everyone understands the action's original purpose is for procreation.
What's wrong with pleasure? Nothing, but this isn't exactly playing a simple game of catch.  There is something wrong with pleasure when it is at the expense of another.  Some people enjoy murder, but that is at the expense of another's life and this clearly is wrong.  In that case, it is wrong for one person to use another for sex and vice versa. 

This is all such nonsense that I can't be bothered to respond to it. None of that has anything to do with this conversation.

If two people want to have sex for fun mutually, well as I said above, its purpose isn't soley for fun obviously.

Howso? People have sex for fun all the time. What do you think a one night stand is? Having no-strings sex is something plenty of people do mutually, and just for fun. It doesn't have to be love just because one person isn't using the other.

Hehe, just because people have sex for fun doesn't mean thats its purpose.  By our anatomy the real purpose is procreation, however it is true that it is enjoyable.  Some people wear pants too big for them (for style), does that mean that the purpose of large size pants is to be worn by people to whom it doesn't fit correctly?

Why would God make sex fun if it shouldn't be?  Did he just fuck it up?

[Hazard]

Perhaps he made sex so enjoyable to offer you the freedom of choice. God's greatest gift is the freedom to choose between good and evil. Maybe he made it so enticing to seperate the righteous from the wicked.

[iago]

Perhaps he made sex so enjoyable to offer you the freedom of choice. God's greatest gift is the freedom to choose between good and evil. Maybe he made it so enticing to seperate the righteous from the wicked.

Haha, I like that view.  That's something I can totally agree with

[nslay]

So you conclude that two people using each other for pleasure is fine?  Oh by all means it happens every day...but that doesn't make it right.
It is meant soley for fun?  Oh, I am sure its fun, but just because its fun you can't conclude it is only for fun.  In fact, everyone understands the action's original purpose is for procreation.
What's wrong with pleasure? Nothing, but this isn't exactly playing a simple game of catch.  There is something wrong with pleasure when it is at the expense of another.  Some people enjoy murder, but that is at the expense of another's life and this clearly is wrong.  In that case, it is wrong for one person to use another for sex and vice versa. 

This is all such nonsense that I can't be bothered to respond to it. None of that has anything to do with this conversation.

If two people want to have sex for fun mutually, well as I said above, its purpose isn't soley for fun obviously.

Howso? People have sex for fun all the time. What do you think a one night stand is? Having no-strings sex is something plenty of people do mutually, and just for fun. It doesn't have to be love just because one person isn't using the other.

Hehe, just because people have sex for fun doesn't mean thats its purpose.  By our anatomy the real purpose is procreation, however it is true that it is enjoyable.  Some people wear pants too big for them (for style), does that mean that the purpose of large size pants is to be worn by people to whom it doesn't fit correctly?

Why would God make sex fun if it shouldn't be?  Did he just fuck it up?

No one said it shouldn't be

[Invert]

Faith. I have faith in God, I have faith that in this case I'm wrong and you're right. How can you say that YOU are right?

Never for a moment in any of my post have I argued with you about the existence or nonexistence of God.
But on that topic I am neither right nor wrong, I do not know.

[iago]

Why would God make sex fun if it shouldn't be?  Did he just fuck it up?

No one said it shouldn't be

Let me restate it: if it shouldn't be done for fun, why would He have made it fun?

But Hazard already gave me a satisfactory answer to that.

[Adron]

the Catholic Church _supported_ the molestation of altar boys

You're the first one I saw saying _that_...


And about the logic, well, some of you are a bit logical, others are not. I wouldn't say either _side_ is more logical, but I'd say that I point out any illogic in certain other people's arguments more than some others do. And that I'm a bit more careful making sure that I'm not trying logically flawed arguments than some others.

[Adron]

Perhaps he made sex so enjoyable to offer you the freedom of choice. God's greatest gift is the freedom to choose between good and evil. Maybe he made it so enticing to seperate the righteous from the wicked.

Perhaps God actually had the bible written as a trick to see how many people would be fooled into not enjoying? A way of separating the lap dogs from the clever?