Valhalla Legends Archive

well it is true that they stole many of their products... but they are still some of the best out there. MS sql server for example, that was not an ms original, I fogot what comany they took it from but it was a small company and ms took the product and drove them under. They have some good economic sence over their a MS.

Quote from: peofeoknight on April 02, 2004, 01:59 PM
well it is true that they stole many of their products... but they are still some of the best out there. MS sql server for example, that was not an ms original, I fogot what comany they took it from but it was a small company and ms took the product and drove them under. They have some good economic sence over their a MS.

Oh don't get me wrong, I do agree they have some quality products out their. As far as having good economic sense, they have some of the best. E-Commerce is going to be huge some day. More specificaly I-Commerce, and Billy is all over it.

Quote from: Tuberload on April 02, 2004, 01:32 AM

Quote from: Myndfyre on April 01, 2004, 09:36 PM

Quote from: iago on April 01, 2004, 12:36 PM
I don't have to argue.  If you don't like Java, you obvoiusly haven't done enough with it.  I used to be where you are, too.  I got a job requiring Java and completely changed my point of view.

I like Java well enough (although sometimes the windowing is scary!  You should see my first Java window -- you'd laugh hysterically).  It's OOP-ability is good, but to be honest, you might want to look at C#, iago.  C# = Java + enumerations + custom value-types + methods on value-types + events + type-safe function pointers - ActionListener interface + etc. - some yucky stuff.



That's pseudocode.  

Java has everything you just stated, and if it doesn't directly support it, you can easily simulate it. Enumerations would be a good example of something easily simulated in Java.

Let's keep in mind were C# came from and why it was developed.

C# eh?  Will that run on Linux?  Because I've done 90% of my Java work on and as a result of using Linux.

Quote from: iago on April 02, 2004, 03:45 PM

Quote from: Tuberload on April 02, 2004, 01:32 AM

Quote from: Myndfyre on April 01, 2004, 09:36 PM

Quote from: iago on April 01, 2004, 12:36 PM
I don't have to argue.  If you don't like Java, you obvoiusly haven't done enough with it.  I used to be where you are, too.  I got a job requiring Java and completely changed my point of view.

I like Java well enough (although sometimes the windowing is scary!  You should see my first Java window -- you'd laugh hysterically).  It's OOP-ability is good, but to be honest, you might want to look at C#, iago.  C# = Java + enumerations + custom value-types + methods on value-types + events + type-safe function pointers - ActionListener interface + etc. - some yucky stuff.



That's pseudocode.  

Java has everything you just stated, and if it doesn't directly support it, you can easily simulate it. Enumerations would be a good example of something easily simulated in Java.

Let's keep in mind were C# came from and why it was developed.

C# eh?  Will that run on Linux?  Because I've done 90% of my Java work on and as a result of using Linux.

I am a moron in this subject, but how well does c++ run on linux? I am more on the web then in client ap scripting so I really do not know about that kind of stuff. I hear from some people that it runs great, that it does not run at all, or that it runs slow, which is it?

C++ runs as well on linux as on Windows.  It's compiled to machine code on both, so it's ok.

BUT, a lot of programs use optimizations that are platform specific.  And if you start working with things like guis and sockets and anything platform-specific, you will have to rewrite a lot of code for it to work.  

Quote from: iago on April 02, 2004, 03:45 PM

Quote from: Tuberload on April 02, 2004, 01:32 AM

Quote from: Myndfyre on April 01, 2004, 09:36 PM

Quote from: iago on April 01, 2004, 12:36 PM
I don't have to argue.  If you don't like Java, you obvoiusly haven't done enough with it.  I used to be where you are, too.  I got a job requiring Java and completely changed my point of view.

I like Java well enough (although sometimes the windowing is scary!  You should see my first Java window -- you'd laugh hysterically).  It's OOP-ability is good, but to be honest, you might want to look at C#, iago.  C# = Java + enumerations + custom value-types + methods on value-types + events + type-safe function pointers - ActionListener interface + etc. - some yucky stuff.



That's pseudocode.  

Java has everything you just stated, and if it doesn't directly support it, you can easily simulate it. Enumerations would be a good example of something easily simulated in Java.

Let's keep in mind were C# came from and why it was developed.

C# eh?  Will that run on Linux?  Because I've done 90% of my Java work on and as a result of using Linux.

How does what I said have anything to do with Linux? I pointed out that C# was created because of Java and you point out Linux...

iago uses linux, and as a result uses Java because it is cross-platform and works on most/all operating systems. If he were to switch to C#, that too would have to be cross-platform because he works in a linux environment, and most of the rest of the world uses windows.

Why not use c++ since it can go cross platform too. C++ will run faster on windows, we all aggree, but I would not be supprised if it ran faster on linux too. What tics me off is that Java makes my phone lag... I have java games and they take forever to load (but that fox fotball game rocks graphics wise, it is better then the super nintendo football games, I can just sit and play and play and play...)

Quote from: peofeoknight on April 02, 2004, 10:57 PM
Why not use c++ since it can go cross platform too. C++ will run faster on windows, we all aggree, but I would not be supprised if it ran faster on linux too. What tics me off is that Java makes my phone lag... I have java games and they take forever to load (but that fox fotball game rocks graphics wise, it is better then the super nintendo football games, I can just sit and play and play and play...)

I don't worry about Java interfacing with my phone.

If I use c++ I would have to reprogram parts of my code (sockets, gui, and probably others) to work on different platforms.  Plus, I enjoy working with Java, it has so much more useful built-in stuff that I use.  You can do *anything* in java.

Quote from: iago on April 03, 2004, 04:23 AM
If I use c++ I would have to reprogram parts of my code (sockets, gui, and probably others) to work on different platforms.  Plus, I enjoy working with Java, it has so much more useful built-in stuff that I use.  You can do *anything* in java.

If you do all sorts of things in java, you'll have to reprogram parts to work on different platforms. Say for example that you were to program a system service or a systray icon - those would need changing since those things just don't exist on all platforms.

You can stick to standard socket calls in C++, using select, and your code will run with very very few changes on both Windows and unix. The program won't be as efficient as if you adapted your code to use the best performer for each platform, but then, java isn't efficient either.

Quote from: Adron on April 03, 2004, 06:22 AM

Quote from: iago on April 03, 2004, 04:23 AM
If I use c++ I would have to reprogram parts of my code (sockets, gui, and probably others) to work on different platforms.  Plus, I enjoy working with Java, it has so much more useful built-in stuff that I use.  You can do *anything* in java.

If you do all sorts of things in java, you'll have to reprogram parts to work on different platforms. Say for example that you were to program a system service or a systray icon - those would need changing since those things just don't exist on all platforms.

You can stick to standard socket calls in C++, using select, and your code will run with very very few changes on both Windows and unix. The program won't be as efficient as if you adapted your code to use the best performer for each platform, but then, java isn't efficient either.

I've written 80% of JBBot on Linux and 20% on windows, and it works on Linux, Windows, and Mac (I've seen it on all 3) perfictly without any changes.

Another thing: threading.  I wrote a keepalive timer in Java that looks like this:

[cpde]        keepalive = new Timer();
       keepalive.schedule(new TimerTask() { public void run() { log("Sending keepalive...", 5); try { send(new BNetBuffer((byte)0x00)); } catch(IOException e) { } } }, 60000, 60000);

and it works on all platforms.  If I was writing portable C++ code, how would I do that?

You couldn't write a single code that works on all platforms as far as I know. You'd have to pick a standard and it'd work on all platforms supporting that standard. Threads aren't part of the C++ language standard. This means that C++ can run on systems that don't support threading, apparently java can't?

Quote from: Adron on April 03, 2004, 10:25 AM
You couldn't write a single code that works on all platforms as far as I know. You'd have to pick a standard and it'd work on all platforms supporting that standard. Threads aren't part of the C++ language standard. This means that C++ can run on systems that don't support threading, apparently java can't?

I would guess that the Java Virtual Machine implements its own threading functions (much like how it implements its own GUI functionality), so (I'm guessing this) the JVM would probably be able to use threading on platforms that don't support it.

If you're happy (or, in fact, if it's convenient) to write code for a single standard, then C++ is great.  I'm not, however, so Java works better.  It's really a matter of what you need.

I'm just looking at Sun's documentation.  If you try to make a gui on a platform that doesn't support guis (ie, console), you get a HeadlessException thrown.  There's no exception thrown by java.lang.Thread, so I would imagine it can do it anywhere.

It would be interesting to test, though

Quote from: iago on April 02, 2004, 03:45 PM

Quote from: Tuberload on April 02, 2004, 01:32 AM

Quote from: Myndfyre on April 01, 2004, 09:36 PM

Quote from: iago on April 01, 2004, 12:36 PM
I don't have to argue.  If you don't like Java, you obvoiusly haven't done enough with it.  I used to be where you are, too.  I got a job requiring Java and completely changed my point of view.

I like Java well enough (although sometimes the windowing is scary!  You should see my first Java window -- you'd laugh hysterically).  It's OOP-ability is good, but to be honest, you might want to look at C#, iago.  C# = Java + enumerations + custom value-types + methods on value-types + events + type-safe function pointers - ActionListener interface + etc. - some yucky stuff.



That's pseudocode.  

Java has everything you just stated, and if it doesn't directly support it, you can easily simulate it. Enumerations would be a good example of something easily simulated in Java.

Let's keep in mind were C# came from and why it was developed.

C# eh?  Will that run on Linux?  Because I've done 90% of my Java work on and as a result of using Linux.

Well I wasn't going to fight the battle, but bleh...

First, to Tuberload -- yes, you can emulate many things in Java, such as type-safe enumerations, but look at how they really work.  The C# compiler treats them as constants, whereas the closest way to do that in Java -- make a class with several instances that are static and constant -- requires the memory to make those instances and hold them in memory throught the application lifetime.  They are also passed by reference, whereas C# enumerations are passed by value.  Pointers can not be done in Java, value types can not be done in Java, methods on value types can't be done in Java (in C# I can call int.ToString() -- in Java, I have to make a new object -- new Integer(myInteger).toString(). ).  Properties (encapsulated methods that appear to be public fields).  Overloaded operators.  Classes hosting events.  Implicit threading when those events are called (any number of events can host any number of hooked listeners; when the event is called, each listener function gets its own thread).  It may very well be that C# was created to compete with Java.  It's certainly doing a fine job.  I had Java homework that I couldn't quite get right; I implemented it in C# and within 5 minutes had it converted back to Java, because they're so similar.

iago: for C#, yes, the Mono project supports it:
http://www.go-mono.com/
While the entirety of the .NET framework doesn't translate over -- for example, the Windows.Forms namespace, much of it does -- they have the web server functionality working on Linux, for example.

The claimed "goal" of the .NET platform is cross-language, cross-platform interoperability with a single binary.  What you compile on Windows you should be able to run on Linux.  That's probably a few versions off, and probably won't be done by Microsoft, but steps are being taken to get there, which is positive.

Like I said, I like Java well enough.  All things considered, though, C# is like Java on steroids.  It's got the nice syntax and flavor of Java, but a ton of sweet features that Java just doesn't have.