Java or C++

[Crypticflare]

Tomorrow I'm heading up to our book store and trying to determine which I want to read, I learned some easier languages (HTML) and read up to some Intermediate levels of Visual Basic, but Java and C++ have really intrigued (sp?) me lately, so I was wondering which one would be the easier of the book learning, I was leaning towards Java but C++ is widely used and an ownage language, so If I could hear some ideas on what you do lemme know, I don't plan to program commercially but I'd still like to know an intermediate level or higher stage of if. Having more knowlege can't hurt you I guess. Would Java be easier to start with then convert to C++, or should I just start fresh with the C++?

[iago]

First of all, html isn't a programming language.  

Java and C++ both have advantages to them. They both have a hard part and an easy part.  In C++ the easy part is that you don't need object orientation, but the difficult part is having to understand pointers (granted, to anybody experienced in C or assembler, pointers become second nature).  Java, on the other hand, doesn't have pointers (well, it does, but it hides them which actually confuses stuff more), but Java will force you to program in Objects, which can be confusing for a beginner programmer and it could lead to doing a lot of stuff that you know works but you don't know why (more so than c++, anyway).

Java is multiplatorm, it's hard to crash a java program while running (it'll almost always throw an exception which can be handled), but in the real world, or in any serious software, it's useless.

C++ is somewhat multiplatorm, the programmer has to be careful or his program can be crashed, you can have memory leaks, it's easier to crack ("hex"), but it's a lot more fun and you can actually do real programs.

That's the summary of each, I'll let you decide for yourself

[Grok]

About two weeks ago there was some movie on TV in which one of the characters was a self-proclaimed super guru technical guy.  He told this girl that she wouldn't understand his job because it was a "very specialized programming language" that very few people could do.

What was his job you ask?  Well so did someone in the movie.

"html on unix"

i about died laughing.

[Crypticflare]

For now I will be sticking to Java, Web design is what I'm interested in, and it can't hurt to have some Java knowlege when I apply for jobs and whatnot, thanks for the help iago I really appreciate it!

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

First of all, html isn't a programming language.  

Java and C++ both have advantages to them. They both have a hard part and an easy part.  In C++ the easy part is that you don't need object orientation, but the difficult part is having to understand pointers (granted, to anybody experienced in C or assembler, pointers become second nature).  Java, on the other hand, doesn't have pointers (well, it does, but it hides them which actually confuses stuff more), but Java will force you to program in Objects, which can be confusing for a beginner programmer and it could lead to doing a lot of stuff that you know works but you don't know why (more so than c++, anyway).

Java is multiplatorm, it's hard to crash a java program while running (it'll almost always throw an exception which can be handled), but in the real world, or in any serious software, it's useless.

C++ is somewhat multiplatorm, the programmer has to be careful or his program can be crashed, you can have memory leaks, it's easier to crack ("hex"), but it's a lot more fun and you can actually do real programs.

That's the summary of each, I'll let you decide for yourself

iago you know nothing.

He said HTML was a language, not a programming language.

Java is the number 1 (ok it might be number 2, next to .net, but I don't know) enterprise applications language, which I count as real-world serious software. Java's references are also insanely easy to grasp if you just don't think about them...as they take care of themselves exactly the way they're supposed to.

You're almost right on C++, except you said it's easier to crack. Hell no! Java can be disassembled to Java source so it's easy++ to crack (unless you obfuscate it, which makes life a little harder).

Too bad you're clueless iago. I used to think better of you until now.

To crypticflare: Java sucks in web design, don't use it. Use flash/php instead. HOWEVER, if you're going to learn Java or C++ first, use Java. It gets you into good habits faster, and you can make more functional programs faster and it's a lot harder to make mistakes in Java.

Grok: HAHA.

[iago]

First of all, html isn't a programming language.  

Java and C++ both have advantages to them. They both have a hard part and an easy part.  In C++ the easy part is that you don't need object orientation, but the difficult part is having to understand pointers (granted, to anybody experienced in C or assembler, pointers become second nature).  Java, on the other hand, doesn't have pointers (well, it does, but it hides them which actually confuses stuff more), but Java will force you to program in Objects, which can be confusing for a beginner programmer and it could lead to doing a lot of stuff that you know works but you don't know why (more so than c++, anyway).

Java is multiplatorm, it's hard to crash a java program while running (it'll almost always throw an exception which can be handled), but in the real world, or in any serious software, it's useless.

C++ is somewhat multiplatorm, the programmer has to be careful or his program can be crashed, you can have memory leaks, it's easier to crack ("hex"), but it's a lot more fun and you can actually do real programs.

That's the summary of each, I'll let you decide for yourself

iago you know nothing.

He said HTML was a language, not a programming language.

Java is the number 1 (ok it might be number 2, next to .net, but I don't know) enterprise applications language, which I count as real-world serious software. Java's references are also insanely easy to grasp if you just don't think about them...as they take care of themselves exactly the way they're supposed to.

You're almost right on C++, except you said it's easier to crack. Hell no! Java can be disassembled to Java source so it's easy++ to crack (unless you obfuscate it, which makes life a little harder).

Too bad you're clueless iago. I used to think better of you until now.

To crypticflare: Java sucks in web design, don't use it. Use flash/php instead. HOWEVER, if you're going to learn Java or C++ first, use Java. It gets you into good habits faster, and you can make more functional programs faster and it's a lot harder to make mistakes in Java.

Grok: HAHA.

Guess it's lucky that I never thought anything of you to begin with.  

Java's references are also insanely easy to grasp if you just don't think about them
use Java. It gets you into good habits faster

Don't you see a problem with that?  Is it really a good habit to assume something is going to work in a certain way without thinking about it?  Well, it's not, the good habit is to understand how something works rather than just being able to dumbly use it.  Java and Visual Basic share that problem: you can do stuff without understanding anything about how it works.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

It's not all that hard to understand how it works. Everything is passed by reference, except for primitive types.

[Crypticflare]

Thanks for the insight, I am currently learning Flash, (Aye its a bitch yet, I need to pick up a Flash for dummies book) PHP sounds good as well, I have the patience to read, I just need the time. I went up to our bookstore, nothing on the Java language, so PHP might work out for me, thanks Storm.

[iago]

It's not all that hard to understand how it works. Everything is passed by reference, except for primitive types.

But it's not necessary to understand, and they encourage you not to understand.  Hiding stuff is bad, and doing stuff without understanding isn't a good habit to get into.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Then all of us should learn how compilers create code and optimize it? It is useful knowledge, but for everyday use, it's not really neccessary. It's like knowing how your car works: it's good to know, as if it breaks down it can help you, but for most uses, all you need to know is to press down the gas.

[iago]

I'm not saying that everybody should learn it, I'm saying it's a good habit.  Not knowing how something works is a bad habit.  Intentionally covering up something as important as pointers encourages bad habits.

[Banana fanna fo fanna]

Pointers aren't important when you're coding in a VM.

[Arta]

And it's coding in a VM that makes java horrid. I'm aware that there's a fundamental lack of logic behind that statement, but I don't care. It's just ewwy.

[tA-Kane]

Then all of us should learn how compilers create code and optimize it?

Sounds like fun... I'm up for that! Well, after of course, I've become good at both C/C++ and (PPC) Assembly (more toward the latter of those, since Assembly is finitely more leeter).