Why do, or why don't you believe in god?
I don't believe in god because of a decision that I made at the age of 6. I had just come home from school (at the time I was attending a highly orthodox jewish private school). I was taught that god knows everything that happens, and everything that is going to happen. Being a curious 6 year old, I was trying to trick god. So I went outside and got on my bike; I thought to myself, ok I'm gonna turn left. I then thought to myself, wait, god expects me to turn left, so I'll turn right. Then I thought, oh wait, then maybe god wants me to go right! I'll go left. Etc.... After about 5 minutes of doing this, I came to the conclusion that by me believing in god, my life was pre-written and I was just living out a story. I decided that if I don't believe in god I can make my own choices. That's why I don't believe in god.
Or, was it already written that you were gonna try it?
I don't believe in God simply because of the fact that .. well .. I don't believe in someone leading my life. If there truly was a God .. then Science would be the devil.
Here we go again.
This is my only post in this thread (I swear). I believe in God because it's what makes sense to me. The truths taught in church are fundamental in every day life and make you a better person, and easier to deal with. If every thing from the bible can be applied to every day life then all of it must be true.
As for the "not controlling your life", he gave people something called "free will", a radical concept where you can choose what to do and he does not control you, simply guide you if you choose to follow.
I beleive in God because, as j0k3r said, it's what makes sense to me. It's also how I was raised. Anyway, I don't see how all of a sudden the universe appeared without somebody creating something. Also, the beleif in God has been passed down through many generations, and many people follow him. It's hard to beleive that a story like that would survive witihout some truth, even though many accounts in the story were proven to have actually happened by an Iralie (sp?) scientist.
Hrmmm, I'll go with the easiest possible explination from my point of view:
At one point there had to be something that was just *there*. Either god was there, or the universe was there. I don't think that there was just some random all-powerful being just sitting there in emptieness that decided to start making things one day. A universe, or simply matter for something like the big bang (which admitedly I don't entirely understand, but few people probably do, heh) would seem more logically to have been just *there*, with nothing else, in the begining.
I believe in god because you cant physically make something (universe) out of nothing. Therefore there must be a higher power.
Wow... didnt we just have a thread about this.
Part of the reason why I believe the bible is factual is because I see prophecy being fulfilled daily. The prophecy in revelation about israel etc. I am leaving this thread now.
I believe in God because everything I read in the Bible makes sense and relates to real life.
God is a myth.. *It* only exists in thought.. It is simply one mans perception of his own higher power.. In this world there is probably a billion different Gods in which people belive in. It's all a matter of faith and there is no proof what so ever to substantiate that one single entity is the creator of all life... If what the bible says is true, then after 40 days and nights of rain, we are all incestual decendants of Noah and his drunken wife... I'm sure he also fit all the animals that now exist on to one big arc too..
The jew's have been very successful in this world in their beliefs in the old testament. It simply states: Obide by these "rules" and generations to come will prosper.. No where does it promise life after death, or that some "God" is going to save you all from the hell we call earth..
Point being, who you chose to see as your higher power is your own "God", and in essence God exists only in thought. I say fuck it, I'm gonna go worship this bottle of JD and call it God.
It's better to have faith just in case. ;)
People who belive something "just in case" need to be violently flogged by rabid monkeys.
If I was God I'd have more respect for you not believing in me at all as opposed to believing in me just in case.
I believe in God. An interesting story about how I came to it, from hardcore atheism. ;) Ultimately, it's a matter of faith. But honestly, either way it's a matter of faith; empiricism cannot logically be the only philosophy by which we live, because it's limited to what we can observe.
Although, I would say several thousand people observed and recorded a resurrected Christ, whereas nobody has ever observed the evolution of new phyla or genera of organisms. ;)
Now, I'm not trying to put anybody's beliefs down, but here are a couple examples of things I've overcome in my personal beliefs.
Quote from: Newby on July 26, 2004, 03:10 AM
I don't believe in God simply because of the fact that .. well .. I don't believe in someone leading my life. If there truly was a God .. then Science would be the devil.
I disagree. Science is a gift to us from God. Without science we would have no medicine, archaic transportation.... Science is awesome. Abuse of science is bad. ;)
Quote from: Noodlez on July 26, 2004, 03:08 AM
I don't believe in god because of a decision that I made at the age of 6.... I decided that if I don't believe in god I can make my own choices. That's why I don't believe in god.
One of the big battles right now among the major branches of Christianity is among what are called the Armenians and the Calvanists. Calvanists do not believe that people have the free will to choose God -- but rather that God chose them, whereas Armenians believe that the choice is ultimately on people's shoulders. (This is a gross simplification in the differences in positions, but it's generally correct).
Personally, I believe that we have free will. It is possible for an outside entity to have foreknowledge of an event, but still not be in control of it. In fact, it only makes sense for a being that created the universe to be eternal; if the being is greater than the whole of the universe, of which time is a component, the being should in fact exist at the beginning and the end of the universe. It should be possible for that being to have all of the knowledge it will ever contain, but also be possible for that being not to
cause that knowledge to come to existence.
It's like if I had $1,000 and I had a choice of ten people to give it to. I didn't give it to somebody because I knew ahead of time I was going to give it to that person. That's retarded.
Quote from: Bsd on July 26, 2004, 12:33 PM
God is a myth.. *It* only exists in thought.. It is simply one mans perception of his own higher power.
How do you know? If empiricism can only tell you what you see, then how do you know of what you cannot?
Quote from: Bsd on July 26, 2004, 12:33 PMIt's all a matter of faith and there is no proof what so ever to substantiate that one single entity is the creator of all life...
Nor is there proof that one single entity is
not the creator of all life.
I believe in God because I think it would be neat to be violently flogged by rabid monkeys.
It's a system of control for society. It's a means of keeping everyone in their place, otherwise they think they will go to hell. People believe the world was created in 7 days and the 2nd person was made from a rib. Call me crazy, but I think evolution is more realistic.
Quote from: Maddox on July 26, 2004, 06:47 PM
People believe the world was created in 7 days and the 2nd person was made from a rib. Call me crazy, but I think evolution is more realistic.
Crazy!
hehe j/k.
If a being created the perceivable universe, isn't it possible, perhaps even likely, that the being that created the universe is not perceivable, because that being exists independently and outside of the universe?
The universe is a very large concept to grasp, and the idea that there is a being that is larger than the universe is an even tougher one, especially for our egotistical minds to grasp. Current humanist thought is that humans are the supreme intelligence in the world, and perhaps the universe. How humbling would it be to find out that, in fact, we're not -- and that we're actually quite dumb in comparison?
No -- I don't limit the possibilities by the abilities of my perception.
I don't believe in the existence of god. There is no need for god, other than as an explanation for things we don't yet understand. We must look to the past to realize this, because we don't know how much we don't know. There will always be things we don't know.
The people inclined to believing in god will explain unknown things using god. The next generation will understand more, and laugh at what the previous generation thought. And still they'll do the same thing. "How could they have been so stupid? Of course that's not God's doing, that's just ..... . God is with us though, just look at ......"
I think god is a useful tool to many people, letting them think there is a higher purpose to things. Knowing that god made them sick or made their car crash to punish them for their sins probably feels much better than that it was all a random coincidence.
Our brains have evolved to look for patterns - it helps us understand our surroundings. Individuals that enjoy seeing patterns have been more successful, and so we have come to like seeing patterns everywhere. Even where there is no pattern. When there is no pattern, no explanation we can understand, "God" is a catch-all. Blame it on god or praise god, depending on the situation.
The concept of god is a very dangerous one. It's a way of making people kill their neighbours, a way of making people do whatever you want. You don't have to explain why they're supposed to do this, because "God" wants them to. No mere mortal could understand god's divine purposes. Obey, and you will be rewarded. Most probably while your corpse is rotting.
Quote from: Adron on July 27, 2004, 09:29 AMThe concept of god is a very dangerous one. It's a way of making people kill their neighbours, a way of making people do whatever you want. You don't have to explain why they're supposed to do this, because "God" wants them to. No mere mortal could understand god's divine purposes. Obey, and you will be rewarded. Most probably while your corpse is rotting.
God is going to get you for saying that. If He doesn't wait till you die, His disciples will do His will.
Adron...Grok... God knew you would say that :P SINNER!
I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist? Conversely, what would people who don't believe in God consider proof that God does exist? I can't think of any concrete evidence that could be presented in either direction that would be the end-all of this argument.
Quote
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C. Clarke
Quote from: TehUser on July 27, 2004, 12:37 PM
I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?
You can't prove a negative.
Quote from: TehUser on July 27, 2004, 12:37 PM
I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist? Conversely, what would people who don't believe in God consider proof that God does exist? I can't think of any concrete evidence that could be presented in either direction that would be the end-all of this argument.
I don't believe in god, but if god came to us, and worked with us in proving his existence, I'm sure it could be done to my satisfaction. He could swap the direction earth rotates, create a new moon in the shape of the words "GOD EXISTS", or some similar, highly noticeable wonder.
Quote from: Adron on July 27, 2004, 02:58 PM
I don't believe in god, but if god came to us, and worked with us in proving his existence, I'm sure it could be done to my satisfaction. He could swap the direction earth rotates, create a new moon in the shape of the words "GOD EXISTS", or some similar, highly noticeable wonder.
But is that being really God then? Or just something with the ability to change the direction planets rotate and create new moons, or whatever? Or for that matter, if that being only has the ability to manipulate the human mind to perceive those highly noticable wonders. Is it still really God?
Quote from: Arta[vL] on July 27, 2004, 01:58 PM
Quote from: TehUser on July 27, 2004, 12:37 PM
I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?
You can't prove a negative.
So I'm consistently told. However, in my empiricism-touting statistics class, you can reject a negative as significantly unlikely.
H
0 -- there is no significant difference between (sample A) and (population A or sample B).
When a statistical test indicates that it is unlikely that, just by chance, factors in the differences between sample A and (sample B or population A) are extremely unlikely, we
reject H
0 which leads us to the alternative hypothesis: there IS a significant difference.
Of course, you can't PROVE it.
Quote from: Adron on July 27, 2004, 09:29 AM
I think god is a useful tool to many people, letting them think there is a higher purpose to things. Knowing that god made them sick or made their car crash to punish them for their sins probably feels much better than that it was all a random coincidence.
Perhaps. But -- does that mean that a god does not exist?
Quote from: Adron on July 27, 2004, 09:29 AMThe concept of god is a very dangerous one. It's a way of making people kill their neighbours, a way of making people do whatever you want. You don't have to explain why they're supposed to do this, because "God" wants them to. No mere mortal could understand god's divine purposes. Obey, and you will be rewarded. Most probably while your corpse is rotting.
Anything abused can be dangerous. When your corpse is vaporized because someone dropped a hydrogen bomb on it, science has become dangerous.
Just because "God" is a catch-all for wackos who want to be justified in their crazed, maniacal killing of people doesn't mean that all people who believe in God are dangerous, or even that the concept of "God" is a dangerous one. The concept of nuclear fission isn't inherently dangerous, but it can be used for horrible things.
Quote from: TehUser on July 27, 2004, 12:37 PM
I just have to ask, what would people who believe in God consider proof that God doesn't exist?
I honestly don't believe it's possible to do it one way or the other. People have and will wonder for ages what the origins of our lives are. Until we can observe it, we'll never know.
And have you seen
Contact with Jodie Foster? Even after she saw the aliens, nobody believed her.
Quote from: Myndfyre on July 27, 2004, 06:30 PM
Quote from: Adron on July 27, 2004, 09:29 AM
I think god is a useful tool to many people, letting them think there is a higher purpose to things. Knowing that god made them sick or made their car crash to punish them for their sins probably feels much better than that it was all a random coincidence.
Perhaps. But -- does that mean that a god does not exist?
No. It only talks about the concept of believing in a god, and whether the god exists or not has no relevance at all. It's the belief that matters. It's like fairies - think of the tooth fairy, except for adults. A way of turning the pain of losing a tooth into something positive.
Quote from: Myndfyre on July 27, 2004, 06:30 PM
Anything abused can be dangerous. When your corpse is vaporized because someone dropped a hydrogen bomb on it, science has become dangerous.
Just because "God" is a catch-all for wackos who want to be justified in their crazed, maniacal killing of people doesn't mean that all people who believe in God are dangerous, or even that the concept of "God" is a dangerous one. The concept of nuclear fission isn't inherently dangerous, but it can be used for horrible things.
True. That is why we regulate nukes so carefully. Religion, on the other hand, is abundant and unregulated.
Quote from: TehUser on July 27, 2004, 06:24 PM
But is that being really God then? Or just something with the ability to change the direction planets rotate and create new moons, or whatever? Or for that matter, if that being only has the ability to manipulate the human mind to perceive those highly noticable wonders. Is it still really God?
Well, it probably depends on your definition of "God". I think the ability to create a world would match many such definitions.
Of course, it's all about actually doing it. But when we start thinking about whether we're being manipulated into seeing the world turn square and bouncing around or if it's actually happening, we might as well question whether we ever lived.
Quoteyou cant physically make something (universe) out of nothing. Therefore there must be a higher power.
How was the god made?
Quote from: Forged on July 27, 2004, 07:38 PM
Quoteyou cant physically make something (universe) out of nothing. Therefore there must be a higher power.
How was the god made?
Such a simple question really belittles the philosophy behind the statement, that a being created the universe.
If you think about it, a god must have existed beyond the universe. Here's why:
If a god existed as part of the universe, one that created our planet for instance -- it's an obvious question: what created that god? And what created the creator of that god? And so on, and so forth, into a logical paradox.
Therefore, God must be eternal: such a being existed before the universe - and therefore time - existed, and will exist after the universe and time end.
Existing eternally implies omniscience. A being that exists apart from time -- unregulated by the flow of time that constrains our universe -- would have the ability to be at any given place at any given time, because that being could start at any given path in any given vector at any given time. It also implies omnipresence, based on the very same logic.
I have some slightly more convoluted logic used to get into omnipotence (the final characteristic of a logical deity), but I don't really feel like getting into it here.
But to really answer -- well, not answer, but challenge -- your question, if we can't even comprehend a being that exists outside of our universe, who are we to say that we can comprehend the maker of that being?
I think the biggest thing that prevents people from believing in a god is ego -- they want to think that
they are in control of their lives, and that they are the ultimate power and intelligence. Then we try to use that expectation to justify their disbelief -- "I can't see God. Who made God?" It is egoism, straight from Rand.
The Paradox and the thought proccess just blows my fucking mind so I find it beter just to not think about it.
QuoteThen we try to use that expectation to justify their disbelief -- "I can't see God. Who made God?" It is egoism, straight from Rand.
I never claimed there to not be a god, I simplly asked a question of him, if everything has to have a creator who created the creator. I like to think their might be a diety of some kind that regulates what happens when I die, but I don't think it would be a god such as that of the christian/jew/muslim god. Or any earthlly worshipd god for that matter. I guess that puts me at diest at best, and agnostic at worst.
in reply to Bsd's first post:
well, nobody could see air, or germs, or anything that tiny until we developed the right tools..
you can't see air without the right tool, perhaps we don't have microscope to see the heavens yet? ^_^
i mean, seriously, does anyone here understand the 'big bang theory' enough to be completely convinced? if anyone is, please, enlighten me.
i was raised christian, around 9 i stopped going to church.
i've never been a very religious person, but i sure as hell don't want to take the chance. i'm honest enough to say that i'm too much of a pussy to take a chance on it.
that's my view on it, i'm not deeply devoted to religion, but i'd just rather not risk it. >_<
i'd much rather be saying "Phew, pwnt." than "FUX!!!11" :D
edit: caught myself in a stupid-moment.
and uh, myndfyre, what you said on the previous page is just..wow. never thought of it that way, makes sense, though, the way i read it, great thinking there. also, about "who made god?" type of subject. the idea of faith explains that well enough i believe. i don't think anyone is mean't to understand it, but to believe, and have faith in it. perhaps one day we will be able to, maybe not.
along the lines of what myndfire was saying, maybe the question isn't "who made god?", but "Where/what did god come from?"...
Quote from: Wish on July 28, 2004, 08:09 AM
i mean, seriously, does anyone here understand the 'big bang theory' enough to be completely convinced?
Yes. Here's a good overview (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang)
Just FYI, no one claims that the big bang theory is a complete one. There's probably more parts of it that we don't understand than parts that we do. It's just the most accepted theory at the moment - until someone comes up with a more complete one. Isn't science great?
Quoteyou can't see air without the right tool
What tool? Your eyes?